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 Post subject: How Obama was a sell-out
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:33 pm 
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http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/commen ... ut/c18aby5

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Obama was a sellout when he backed off on closing Guantanamo.
Obama was a sellout when he backed off of his promise to keep lobbyists out of his administration.
Obama was a sellout when he protected the Bush administration from prosecution for torture.
Obama was a sellout when he authorized the assassination of U.S. citizens abroad.
Obama was a sellout when he rescinded on his promise to not prosecute marijuana users in states where it is legal, and pushed for a 5 year prison term for a California-legal medical marijuana dispensary operator.
Obama was a sellout when he prosecuted child-soldier Omar Khadr using evidence gained through torture.
Obama was a sellout when he granted 27 waivers to oil companies drilling in the weeks following the Deepwater Horizon disaster.
Obama was a sellout when he fought for, and won, the right to deny habeas corpus to detainees.
He was a sellout when he blocked UN human rights investigations at Guantanamo.
He dropped charges against the CIA for destroying videotapes documenting torture of detainees.
He deported record number of undocumented immigrants.
He continued rendition of alleged terrorists to countries where they could be tortured.
He continued indefinitely detaining alleged terrorists, WITHOUT TRIAL.
He extended the PATRIOT Act, with no reforms.
He dramatically increased government secrecy, denying more Freedom of Information Act requests in 2009 than Bush did in 2008. So much for open government.
He cut a secret deal to kill the public option, while still campaigning on its behalf.
He defended Don't Ask Don't Tell from legal challenges.
He reaffirmed his opposition to same-sex marriage.
He granted waivers to 30 companies, including McDonalds, exempting them from health care reform.
He announced the single largest arms deal in history, of $60bil worth of arms, to Saudi Arabian dictatorship.
He gave permits to BP and other oil companies, exempting them from environmental protection laws.
He appointed Monsanto executive Michael Taylor to the FDA.
He appointed a former Monsanto lobbyist as Chief Agriculture Negotiator.
He appointed Timothy Geithner as Secretary of the Treasury.
He increased the use of combat drones in Pakistan.
He passed a massive Wall Street bailout at the expense of the taxpayers.
He played down the importance of the WikiLeaks documents.
He failed... to address... climate change issues. (three separate links here)
He pushed for mandatory DNA testing for those arrested for crimes, even if they have not been convicted.
He undercuts whistleblowers.
He promised $30bil in military aid to Israel over the next decade.
But NOW, he's a sellout, when he extends Bush's tax cuts? Oh no. Obama has been a sellout since day one.
Please respect the amount of work put into this comment by replying to explain why you're downvoting, if you do so.


Interesting post from Reddit. In the original thread, each of these lines points to a mainstream news article proving its validity. I'm too lazy to post the 30ish links here. I kinda wish Montegue was here... I'd like to see what he'd say. It's funny because I know there were several people on the Glade who believed all the "Change" nonsense.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:35 pm 
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Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment :) (thank you warhammer 40k and your "grimdark! (tm)"

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:39 pm 
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Counts as selling out, in my opinion:
  • Obama was a sellout when he backed off on closing Guantanamo.
  • Obama was a sellout when he protected the Bush administration from prosecution for torture.
  • Obama was a sellout when he prosecuted child-soldier Omar Khadr using evidence gained through torture.
  • Obama was a sellout when he granted 27 waivers to oil companies drilling in the weeks following the Deepwater Horizon disaster.
  • Obama was a sellout when he fought for, and won, the right to deny habeas corpus to detainees.
  • He was a sellout when he blocked UN human rights investigations at Guantanamo.
  • He dropped charges against the CIA for destroying videotapes documenting torture of detainees.
  • He continued rendition of alleged terrorists to countries where they could be tortured.
  • He continued indefinitely detaining alleged terrorists, WITHOUT TRIAL.
  • He dramatically increased government secrecy, denying more Freedom of Information Act requests in 2009 than Bush did in 2008. So much for open government.
  • He undercuts whistleblowers.

Doesn't count as selling out, in my opinion:
  • Obama was a sellout when he backed off of his promise to keep lobbyists out of his administration.
  • Obama was a sellout when he authorized the assassination of U.S. citizens abroad.
  • Obama was a sellout when he rescinded on his promise to not prosecute marijuana users in states where it is legal, and pushed for a 5 year prison term for a California-legal medical marijuana dispensary operator.
  • He deported record number of undocumented immigrants.
  • He extended the PATRIOT Act, with no reforms.
  • He cut a secret deal to kill the public option, while still campaigning on its behalf.
  • He defended Don't Ask Don't Tell from legal challenges.
  • He reaffirmed his opposition to same-sex marriage.
  • He granted waivers to 30 companies, including McDonalds, exempting them from health care reform.
  • He announced the single largest arms deal in history, of $60bil worth of arms, to Saudi Arabian dictatorship.
  • He gave permits to BP and other oil companies, exempting them from environmental protection laws.
  • He appointed Monsanto executive Michael Taylor to the FDA.
  • He appointed a former Monsanto lobbyist as Chief Agriculture Negotiator.
  • He appointed Timothy Geithner as Secretary of the Treasury.
  • He increased the use of combat drones in Pakistan.
  • He passed a massive Wall Street bailout at the expense of the taxpayers.
  • He played down the importance of the WikiLeaks documents.
  • He failed... to address... climate change issues. (three separate links here)
  • He pushed for mandatory DNA testing for those arrested for crimes, even if they have not been convicted.
  • He promised $30bil in military aid to Israel over the next decade.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:40 pm 
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My level of "hope" for Obama is the same it's always been. He's just an ordinary President... mostly preserving the status quo, unwilling to do anything more than a little controversial or against his peers, etc. If people really wanted change, they would have elected Ron Paul.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:44 pm 
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http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm? ... 29DAF246F1

Quote:
Obama’s promise to reverse the tax cuts reflected a broader belief among Democrats that the Bush years were a bizarre and in essential ways illegitimate aberration, a period of panic and greed the errors of which Obama would reverse in a series of swift and decisive strokes.

Yet the tax compromise is just the most spectacular — and to Democrats, infuriating — element of a broader trend under a president who ran as the leader of the counter-revolution. It is the domestic counterpart of Obama’s early decision not to repudiate and investigate reviled Bush national security policies such as indefinite detention and warrantless wiretapping, but to refine and embrace them.


so so funny, meet the new boss, same as the old one :)

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:49 pm 
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By the way Barack Obama is on a new Mythbusters in 10 minutes :) . (9:00 EST)


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:38 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Doesn't count as selling out, in my opinion:
Obama was a sellout when he backed off of his promise to keep lobbyists out of his administration.

I agree with many of the items in your list of "not a sellout", as I consider a lot of those realizations of the the circumstances (more info, etc). However, this is blatantly a sell out to his campaign promise, and it is particularly hypocritical considering his comments about the nature of employment and relationship between the governmental groups and the industry during the gulf oil event.

I'm curious why you have this listed here.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:21 am 
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Ladas wrote:
RangerDave wrote:
Doesn't count as selling out, in my opinion:
Obama was a sellout when he backed off of his promise to keep lobbyists out of his administration.

I agree with many of the items in your list of "not a sellout", as I consider a lot of those realizations of the the circumstances (more info, etc). However, this is blatantly a sell out to his campaign promise, and it is particularly hypocritical considering his comments about the nature of employment and relationship between the governmental groups and the industry during the gulf oil event.

I'm curious why you have this listed here.


My answer to that is that he realized that it's basically impossible to find someone with experience that doesn't have recent lobby experience.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:33 am 
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Ladas wrote:
RangerDave wrote:
Doesn't count as selling out, in my opinion:
Obama was a sellout when he backed off of his promise to keep lobbyists out of his administration.
However, this is blatantly a sell out to his campaign promise....I'm curious why you have this listed here.


Basically what Aizle said, though I would go even further - I don't think he ever intended to keep this promise, and I didn't believe him when he said it during the campaign, so in my book it wasn't a post-election sell out; it was a campaign-season lie. However, I see it as being similar to other boilerplate campaign lies that every candidate indulges in - "I'll fight the special interests!" "No more lobbyists in government!" "No more earmarks!" "Cutting waste!" etc., etc. - so I don't really hold this one against him that much. More of an /eyeroll thing when he said it for me.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:35 am 
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Makes sense, though with that justification, I would place everything you listed under actual "Sell Out" moments as eye roll campaign lies from my perspective.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:42 am 
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So you actually didn't expect him to sell out for the other things? Those weren't /eyeroll for you as well?


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:43 am 
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I can see that. I guess what it comes down to is that I believed him when he positioned himself during the campaign as solidly pro-due process and anti-torture. Also, I consider those to be the kind of issues that are, or at least should be, above the usual /eyeroll campaign puffery and pragmatic political compromise, so his reversals there strike me as genuine betrayals of principle.


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:50 am 
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Ladas wrote:
Makes sense, though with that justification, I would place everything you listed under actual "Sell Out" moments as eye roll campaign lies from my perspective.


This brings up an interesting question.

Do folks think that it's possible to actually win a major national election (house/senate/presidency) without making campaign promises that you know will be impossible to keep. In short, can you get elected without lying.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:51 am 
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I'd say no. The specific lies required just differ depending on whether you run as a Democrat or a Republican.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:58 am 
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Personally, I think it is completely reasonable to expect candidates to get elected without lying; and I think it is absolutely demoralizing that so few people actually hold elected officials to that standard.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:10 am 
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Khross wrote:
Personally, I think it is completely reasonable to expect candidates to get elected without lying; and I think it is absolutely demoralizing that so few people actually hold elected officials to that standard.


I don't disagree. However, you didn't really answer the question and I'm curious to know your answer. Do you think that in today's political climate that it's possible to get elected without lying?


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:14 am 
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Aizle wrote:
Khross wrote:
Personally, I think it is completely reasonable to expect candidates to get elected without lying; and I think it is absolutely demoralizing that so few people actually hold elected officials to that standard.


I don't disagree. However, you didn't really answer the question and I'm curious to know your answer. Do you think that in today's political climate that it's possible to get elected without lying?


Yes. Do you really think it's impossible to not lie and not get elected?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:16 am 
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Nitefox wrote:
Aizle wrote:
Khross wrote:
Personally, I think it is completely reasonable to expect candidates to get elected without lying; and I think it is absolutely demoralizing that so few people actually hold elected officials to that standard.


I don't disagree. However, you didn't really answer the question and I'm curious to know your answer. Do you think that in today's political climate that it's possible to get elected without lying?


Yes. Do you really think it's impossible to not lie and not get elected?


Yes. All politicians are liars.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:18 am 
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Nitefox wrote:
Yes. Do you really think it's impossible to not lie and not get elected?


Yes I don't. Do you not really think it's not impossible to not lie and fail to not be elected?

No, I couldn't not fail to follow that either.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:19 am 
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Müs wrote:
Yes. All politicians are liars.



I disagree. I think most say what they can to get elected but I don't think all of them are liars.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:20 am 
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Talya wrote:
Nitefox wrote:
Yes. Do you really think it's impossible to not lie and not get elected?


Yes I don't. Do you not really think it's not impossible to not lie and fail to not be elected?

No, I couldn't not fail to follow that either.



Then shut the hell up or ask for clarification.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:20 am 
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Talya wrote:
Nitefox wrote:
Yes. Do you really think it's impossible to not lie and not get elected?


Yes I don't. Do you really think it's not possible to lie and be elected?

No, I couldn't not fail to follow that either.


Attempted to translate...


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:24 am 
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Nitefox wrote:
Müs wrote:
Yes. All politicians are liars.



I disagree. I think most say what they can to get elected but I don't think all of them are liars.


You are naive.

They are all liars. All of them.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:25 am 
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Müs wrote:
Nitefox wrote:
Müs wrote:
Yes. All politicians are liars.



I disagree. I think most say what they can to get elected but I don't think all of them are liars.


You are naive.

They are all liars. All of them.


I don't think Ron Paul is.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:25 am 
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Everybody lies.
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Last edited by Taskiss on Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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