The Glade 4.0

"Don't open the door. Mommy and daddy are taking a nap."

Somehow, I suspect Santa is still the earliest they'll remember.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

"Daddy drinks because you cry."

Oh wait, that wasn't a lie.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

No, I want what I asked for. You're suggesting that people telling their kids that Santa Claus is coming is hurting them. Back it up.



We know people have trust issues. Show that, like you said, a LOT of these started with finding out Santa was a lie.

You could also retract your statement.

No I'm not, I did not say that, and won't fall into arguing your strawman. I'm suggesting that getting caught lying to children can potentially cause trust issues (meaning, lessen the trust children have in their parents), and Santa Claus is, in most cases, the first big lie they're going to remember. Every person who doesn't trust their parents word due to a series of lies or perceived lies, this is the first big one they were ever told, therefore those trust issues absolutely started with that one lie. All I need to do to prove this is find a study on the effects of lying to children...which is too obvious to bother with unless you really want to suggest lying to kids has no potential to cause them to lose trust in the one lying to them. So, feel free to suggest we should all lie to our kids as much as possible and it will never cause issues, and I'll go searching.

I don't ultimately think this is a big deal. I just don't think that it's an overall good thing for kids, and has the potential to hurt a parent's relationship with the child, or at least be a contributing factor. I also wonder about the possibility that such mandatory gift giving might help develop a sense of entitlement. (I suppose the "lump of coal" threat can help prevent that? Anyone ever follow through on that for kids who have behavioral issues?)

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

Oh, please. You're making a positive assertion that Santa is a non-negligible contribution to something in a pattern of lies which are way bigger and more impactful.

How many therapy sessions start with "My mother told me there was a Santa Claus" vs. "My mother told me my father was dead?" And yet, which is the more common experience?

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

I was hurt more by the truth I was told...

"Wait 'till your father gets home"!



My youngest son cried like 3 months straight 'cause of "colic", whatever the hell that is. It probably caused me to drink, I really don't remember what happened 23 years ago that well.

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In time, this too shall pass.

I'm not talking about psychological issues requiring therapy. I'm talking about trust between two people --and perhaps justified ones at that. A parent willing to tell their child such a ridiculous story might be willing to tell them just about anything.

There's lots of arguments on either side. Funny thing is, most of the arguments against telling kids about Santa Claus come from Christians.

I particularly feel this one is interesting:


Here's a bunch more:

http://www.revelife.com/684999054/bah-h ... out-santa/
http://www.vcmagazine.org/article.aspx? ... forechrist
http://atheism.about.com/od/christmasho ... taMyth.htm
http://communities.canada.com/vancouver ... rmful.aspx (This approaches both sides, part 1)
http://communities.canada.com/vancouver ... h-lie.aspx (part 2)
http://communities.canada.com/vancouver ... eists.aspx (part 3)

There are dozens of such discussions. I'm sure there's no concrete absolute answer to find. For me it boils down to this: I don't want to lie to my kids. Everybody lies, and there's a difference between lying for someone's benefit and lying for your own, but for something so unnecessary? Why would I tell such a massive untruth about something so trivial? Why break that principle there? It's going to be hard enough keeping the lines of communication open with them when they're teenagers. Anything I can do to foster trust is important.

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

The probably believe Santa Clause is an idol, so of course they'll discourage folks from believing



Are you really advocating the advise on that site, Taly?

I've not had any problems with trust where my kids are concerned, and they've observed and mentioned to others that "Dad never lies - never"! even though I told them all about Santa, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy.

What I've never done is lied to gain any kind of personal advantage.... you know, the lies that benefit the teller at the expense of the the one being told the lie. This, after the divorce their mother and I went through. It tickled me to hear them say it. I wonder... was it a white lie? Eh, what difference does it make?

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In time, this too shall pass.

I have no issues with this. It's one thing to tell your children a fable and let them make-believe. It's another to insist the fables are true. I didn't go telling my kids "This is just a story, none of it is true," they came to those conclusions on their own. I also didn't go telling them the stories were true, either. My kids have known the santa claus story since they were very small. It doesn't mean they ever expected him to be real.

(Of course, I feel the same way about bible stories. Yes, I got a book of bible stories for my kids. I think in this part of the world, knowing the bible and understanding the religions based on it is part of knowing your culture, even if you do not believe in it as a holy book.)

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

Santa Claus is part of the big marketing scheme of the winter holidays. Telling your kids the myths about Santa Claus is a way to hype the gift giving, get them to behave occasionally, and get them in line with 'everyone' else's kids. Yeah kid, there's this source of happiness and prosperity in the North, be a good consumer and life will be wonderful, Santa Claus, the Federal Government, Wall Street, what ever floats your boat.

Bitter and cynical this morn, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

We lie to our kids all the time, most of the time we don't even realize we are doing it.

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The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones

Ha.

True story...five years ago (Lachlan was 3, Keira was a few months old, and I was very busy.)

Lachlan: Are oceans big, mommy?
Me: Yes.
Lachlan: Lots of fish are in dem?
Me: Yes.
Lachlan: And sharks?
Me: Yes.
Lachlan: And are dere big boats in da ocean?
Me: Yes.
Lachlan: And people on da boats?
Me: Yes.
Lachlan: Are pirates real?
Me: Yes.
Lachlan: Pirates are on boats?
Me: Not very often anymore, but yes.
Lachlan: Do you like pirates?
Me (starting to lose focus on the conversation that never stops): Yes.
Lachlan: Do pirates have swords?
Me: Yes.
Lachlan: Do pirates have guns?
Me: Yes.
Lachlan: {question}
Me: Yes.
Lachlan: {question}
Me: Yes.
{repeat ad nauseum until "yes" became second nature}
Lachlan: Are dere girl pirates?
Me: Yes.
Lachlan: Were you ever a pirate?
Me: Yes.
Lachlan: Really?
Me: Wait, what?
Lachlan goes off to play.

It took me a couple weeks to discredit the legend of the dread pirate mommy.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

Much the same as many other fables, urban legends, etc.

You still are a pirate; Canada's refusal to prosecute you for being such be damned.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

Yes you did, you said:

"A lot of people who have serious trust issues with their parents that started with finding out Santa was a lie."

So, we have a subset of people who have serious trust issues with their parents. Of these, "a lot" of have issues that started because of being lied to about Santa. Demonstrate this.



That's the biggest leap of causational nonsense I've read on this board. I doubt very seriously that you can produce one single instance of the Santa lie resulting in serious trust issues. The only thing you can show is that in addition to tons of other issues, the kid was also lied to about Santa.

No, it doesn't start with Santa. Santa's fine. Molesting your kid while telling him about Santa is not fine.

A similar nonsensical argument is that cigarrettes should be illegal because it leads to crack and prostitution.

[/quote]

So I guess you're against birthdays too? Celebrations of any kind?

Give me a break.

Arathain, there's no causal "leap" here.

Answer these two questions, yes or no:

(1) Can lying to children (or anyone, for that matter) cause them to lack trust in the people who lied to them?
(2) Is telling children Santa Claus exists a lie?

If the answer to both of those questions is not absolutely "no" then yes, unequivocably, many children have a lack of trust in their parents caused by a chain of events started with the Santa Claus lie.

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

nah, it has been an aura of uptight. The kind of aura that makes those within 10 feet uncomfortable.

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

Funny you should make this thread, as we were just having a discussion about Santa in the office I work in the other day.

IMO, tell them ASAP, or better yet don't tell them at all to begin with.

They are going to find out eventually, and it may lead to them getting upset over something that is a lie to being with.

As strange as it seems, I still have a fairly clear memory of how I figured out on my own that there was no Santa....

We were spending Christmas at Grandma's in Ventura CA. Mom and Grandma (Nana) had been out shopping earlier in the day, and I was snooping around the house and found a new, unopened skittle pool game under Nana's bed.



I somehow managed to suppress the urge to drag it out and start playing with it, and just kept my find to myself. A few days later, on Christmas morning, it showed up under the Christmas Tree, tagged "To {me}, From Santa".

I remember being feeling a little sad. Not about the fact that I had been lied to. More because I somehow knew that Christmases would never be same. I eventually took it as a sort of 'you're a big boy now', 'right of passage' sort of thing. My big brother and sister were relieved they didn't have to worry about being the ones to spill the beans. And then I was saddled with the responsibility to not blab my new found secret to my other same-age friends....

I don't have any recollection of feeling betrayed, or deceived, or lied to at all....

I think those that feel it wasn't a lie feel that way because for them, it's not.

Seriously. I still believe what my parents told me, 'cause when I did go to them with the news (and I too remember it) that one of my friends said there wasn't really a Santa, they told me that Santa was the spirit of Christmas, that he worked through parents, etc. etc. etc. They explained it in such a way that I still believe in the spirit of Christmas.

And I'd not have denied that same feeling to my kids. It was a wonderful time while it lasted, and still now, being able to share it with those kids that believe is a great feeling.

Ho Ho Ho!

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In time, this too shall pass.

Do you think there are any children that, when upon finding out that Santa is not real, instantly think..."wow, my parents lied to me" ? Or, do they add that to the list as they age and become more jaded and cynical due to other lies that are devastating...

I am on the same page with Taskiss and Midgen. I believed in Santa and we sprinkled "raindeer dust" (glitter and birdseed) in the driveway so the raindeer would see the sparkle, we left cookies and milk by the fireplace and in the morning the cookies would be half eaten and a foot print was on the tile by the fireplace. My parents never told me Santa wasn't real, I just figured it out by myself. Never once, did I feel betrayed by my parents or think that they lied to me. Christmas was wonderful and magical because of the efforts of my parents.

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Dream as if you'll live forever...
...Live as if you'll die tomorrow

Vivere Senza Rimpianti

This is exactly the same way it was for me. And I have seen some things that are just too odd to be complete coincidence.

My ex's mother passed away from Cancer many years ago, and come Christmas time that first year she was depressed and with good reason. We went to the store to buy my little one a last Christmas Present and in the change she received was a dollar bill with her mom's name written on it, as well as her DoB. She cried for a while but then decided it was an omen to be more festive for Christmas.

Then the next day we went out to breakfast and when we got home there was a pair of earrings and a necklace on the bathroom counter that were her moms and she had not seen in years. And I swear to all that is: I did not do it.

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

Exactly what I was trying to get at. Well said!

_________________
"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

When ever you want? I don't care what other people do, but I'd just tell them ASAP. I take Carl Sagan's view on it.

A couple weekends ago, there was a Christmas town-thing on base. The next week, some of the people at work were complaining about the super long line for Santa. I told them to save themselves some time next year and tell their kids Santa isn't real. They just looked at me like I was a monster... Well, I am, but I think it's a reasonable action to take.

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"...the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?" -Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

This, exactly this, along with the realization of the lengths to which my parents would go to make me happy. Rather than feel betrayed or lied to, I felt a bit ashamed for being the cause of such an effort that I often didn't appreciate. Every year since, I've made an effort to slip something under the tree for someone from "Santa".

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

Yes, I know some who felt that way.


Let me put it to you another way:

Out of the millions (perhaps billions?) of children who have been told Santa exists, do you not think that it affected any of them negatively?'

Not believing in Santa never hurt anyone.

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █