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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:36 pm 
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Stathol wrote:
I think you need to go actually read what Kinsey wrote, because you really have no clue what you're talking about.

All I've said is that the link supports Arathain's assertion.

Talk to the graph.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:37 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
Stathol wrote:
I think you need to go actually read what Kinsey wrote, because you really have no clue what you're talking about.

All I've said is that the link supports Arathain's assertion.

Talk to the graph.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:40 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
All I've said is that the link supports Arathain's assertion.

Talk to the graph.

Non-argument ad nauseum? That's special. You're special.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:51 pm 
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Stathol wrote:
Taskiss wrote:
All I've said is that the link supports Arathain's assertion.

Talk to the graph.

Non-argument ad nauseum? That's special. You're special.

You know, for someone trying so hard to appear to know so much about the topic because of a better than average understanding of Kinsey, you sure show jack **** ability in understanding Arathain. His assertion matches that graph to a "t".

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:01 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
Stathol wrote:
Taskiss wrote:
All I've said is that the link supports Arathain's assertion.

Talk to the graph.

Non-argument ad nauseum? That's special. You're special.

You know, for someone trying so hard to appear to know so much about the topic because of a better than average understanding of Kinsey, you sure show jack **** ability in understanding Arathain. His assertion matches that graph to a "t".



No. The graph says the opposite of what Arathain is saying.

Hey, talk to the graph.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:01 pm 
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shuyung wrote:
If you can't be mostly straight, how can you be mildly gay? There seems to be a disconnect in your premises.


Because, like I said, you're either straight, or you are not straight. I never said you are gay, or not gay.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:02 pm 
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Talya wrote:
Suuuuure. Protesting a bit too much, huh?

Fag.


You're projecting.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:04 pm 
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Stathol wrote:
It's an opinion, as you say. But I will point out that your opinion is based entirely on a specific choice of (informal) English terminology. Terminology which -- although I don't personally object to its usage -- is, let's be honest, is rather biased towards a particular interpretation of sexuality. If (general) we use neutral, purely descriptive, clinical terms like "homosexuality" and "heterosexuality", then the entirety of your opinion becomes irrelevant to the discussion.



Not really. If you are a heterosexual, you are attracted to the opposite sex. If you are a homosexual, you are attracted to members of the same sex.

There are lots of people who do not fit into either category.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:05 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
Turn off or get disgusted at porn any time you see a guy in it, Ara?


Being straight does not mean I cannot bear to look at a naked dude. What kind of argument is that?

Being straight means only that I am not attracted to them.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:07 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
If you are a heterosexual, you are attracted to the opposite sex. If you are a homosexual, you are attracted to members of the same sex.

You got this much right.

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There are lots of people who do not fit into either category.

Not really, only if they are completely asexual. If you are attracted to both sexes, you are attracted to the same sex, AND you are attracted to the opposite sex. Therefore you are both heterosexual AND homosexual. Bisexual does not mean "Neither." It means "Both."

Further on that:
Heterosexual = Straight. In vernacular use to describe orientation, they are the exact same thing.
Homosexual = Gay.

If you can be both heterosexual and homosexual, then you can be both straight and gay. It is not an exclusive term.

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...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:07 pm 
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Talya wrote:
(Although Arathain, in his vocal homophobic way, is trying to describe only heterosexuality as exclusive, while homosexuality is everything else.)


No, I'm not.

Heterosexuals are attracted to the opposite sex.
Homosexuals are attracted to the same sex.
Bisexuals (or whatever you like to call them) are attracted to either sex by a varying degree.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:09 pm 
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The graph is rather poorly made, and not what I was linking. It does not report the amount of answers or the percentage of the population that falls within a given category. Rather, the blue shaded region represents how homosexual a given region is. It in no way attempts to link a category with the frequency with which that category appears in human society.

Quote:
Males do not represent two discrete populations, heterosexual and homosexual. The world is not to be divided into sheep and goats. It is a fundamental of taxonomy that nature rarely deals with discrete categories... The living world is a continuum in each and every one of its aspects.
While emphasizing the continuity of the gradations between exclusively heterosexual and exclusively homosexual histories, it has seemed desirable to develop some sort of classification which could be based on the relative amounts of heterosexual and homosexual experience or response in each history [...] An individual may be assigned a position on this scale, for each period in his life. [...] A seven-point scale comes nearer to showing the many gradations that actually exist." (Kinsey, et al. (1948). pp. 639, 656)


This is work that was done in the forties and fifties, at a time when homosexuality was considered a mental illness and was treated with electro shock therapy. Alfred Kinsey's work was very controversial to say the least. Arathain and Taskiss are merely holdovers from that time period. Our current understanding of human sexuality is that Kinsey does not cover the whole range of human sexuality, but this is akin to stating that Isaac Newton's laws of motion do not cover the whole range of physics. Newtonian mechanics got us to the moon, and Kinsey's scale, while not complete, is a remarkable starting point. There is a difference between, "This is what we thought fifty years ago, and it's wrong," and, "This is what we thought fifty years ago, but there's more."

As to the graph, cognitive bias, and so forth, let's look once again at the first sentence of that quote. It is nice and comforting as a heterosexual male to think that I am completely and utterly straight. That thought keeps my masculinity from being called into question. It is also misleading. The extreme ends of the spectrum, the completely heterosexual and completely homosexual areas, are largely fictitious. This is not to say that they absolutely do not exist, as there are a few people who fall into either category, just like there are people who are totally disinterested in sex altogether, but these people are rare. What the lay population think of as "totally straight" is actually a 1 on Kinsey's scale - that is, incidentally homosexual. As a heterosexual male, that is an absolutely frightening thought.

To use Arathain's definition, there are no straight men on this board. It's fine to use his definition, but it does not imply what he (and everyone he's arguing with) seem to think it implies. If straight is totally heterosexual, and everything else is varying levels of gay, then we are all gay men. (Well, there's probably one totally heterosexual male on the board - we'll say it's Kaffis for the sake of argument). Perhaps, he is right. Maybe we should start supporting our more intensely gay brethren, and wear the following badge with pride:

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Last edited by Corolinth on Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:10 pm 
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Talya wrote:
If you can be both heterosexual and homosexual, then you can be both straight and gay. It is not an exclusive term.


Except, you can't be both hetero and homo.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:11 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
Stathol wrote:
Taskiss wrote:
All I've said is that the link supports Arathain's assertion.

Talk to the graph.

Non-argument ad nauseum? That's special. You're special.

You know, for someone trying so hard to appear to know so much about the topic because of a better than average understanding of Kinsey, you sure show jack **** ability in understanding Arathain. His assertion matches that graph to a "t".


Yeah, it really does. I don't get what the problem is.

/pretty obvious


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:11 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
To use Arathain's definition, there are no straight men on this board. It's fine to use his definition, but it does not imply what he (and everyone he's arguing with) seem to think it implies. If straight is totally heterosexual, and everything else is varying levels of gay, then we are all gay men.


So you and Taly say. I think you're just projecting.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:15 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
So you and Taly say. I think you're just projecting.


The entire field of psychology would be projecting, too, then?

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But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:19 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
The graph is rather poorly made, and not what I was linking.
.
.
Arathain and Taskiss are merely holdovers from that time period.

The graph was at the linked page, and it very clearly supports the quote from Arathain.

Now, that's been my single observation in this thread. The graph supports that one assertion. Any additional insight into my opinion you think you've gleaned is totally a figment of your, Tally, and Stathols imagination.


Which totally calls into question your collective ability to understand a damn thing Kinsey wrote, given that track record.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:22 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
You know, for someone trying so hard to appear to know so much about the topic because of a better than average understanding of Kinsey, you sure show jack **** ability in understanding Arathain. His assertion matches that graph to a "t".

I'm not "trying so hard", you just aren't trying at all. You tossed out a ridiculous assertion about a theory that you apparently didn't know anything about. This was refuted by several different people, and in a number of different ways. You've offered no actual counter-refutation of those points. Instead, you've posted a graph, along with a single sentence response that does two things:

1) Repeats the same fallacious square-peg-round-hole substitution of "straight" and "bent" that I already addressed on several different grounds (all unanswered by you)

2) Completely fails to understand either the standard graphing convention of an axis label or the underlying concept of how axes related to values.

Repeating yourself and saying "talk to the graph" doesn't resolve that. It has all the logical value of "NUH UH!"

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:23 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
The graph was at the linked page, and it very clearly supports the quote from Arathain.



No, it doesn't. The graph merely has straight on one side, gay on the other, and varying mixes of straight and gay in between. An Arathain graph of similar design would have straight on one side, with everything else being just gay.

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But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:25 pm 
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I tossed nothing out. I visited a link, saw a graph, and remarked that it supported a single assertion someone else made.

As I said, if think there was more than that, it came from you, not me. Sorta makes it as you arguing with yourself, but hey, knock yourself out.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:32 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
I tossed nothing out. I visited a link, saw a graph, and remarked that it supported a single assertion someone else made.

Which is a bare assertion. I.e. tossing something out.

But fine -- you're admitting that you have nothing of substance to contribute. I think that comes as a surprise to no one.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:34 pm 
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Talya wrote:
Taskiss wrote:
The graph was at the linked page, and it very clearly supports the quote from Arathain.



No, it doesn't. The graph merely has straight on one side, gay on the other, and varying mixes of straight and gay in between. An Arathain graph of similar design would have straight on one side, with everything else being just gay.
No, only if you assume that his statement encompassed the whole of all possible sexualities. As far as his statement that I quoted goes, it is supported by the graph.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:37 pm 
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Stathol wrote:
Taskiss wrote:
I tossed nothing out. I visited a link, saw a graph, and remarked that it supported a single assertion someone else made.

Which is a bare assertion. I.e. tossing something out.

But fine -- you're admitting that you have nothing of substance to contribute. I think that comes as a surprise to no one.


Pointing out that Arathain's assertion was supported by the linked material seems to be substantive. Unless you disagree, then I can understand your attempts at depreciating it.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:49 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
Pointing out that Arathain's assertion was supported by the linked material seems to be substantive. Unless you disagree, then I can understand your attempts at depreciating it.

Seriously? How could you miss this unless you just haven't been reading the thread at all?

Yes, I disagree with your assertion that the material in question supports Arathain's assertion. I've stated that plainly several times already, along with more detailed arguments as to why the material doesn't support his assertion.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:51 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
No, only if you assume that his statement encompassed the whole of all possible sexualities.


That is Arathain's only assertion: People are either 100% straight, or not straight at all. It's an absolute that he believes encompasses the whole of possible sexualities. That graph shows the opposite -- there are varying degrees of straight or gay.

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But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me

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