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PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 7:46 pm 
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http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/26/opini ... istof.html

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We face wrenching budget cutting in the years ahead, but there’s one huge area of government spending that Democrats and Republicans alike have so far treated as sacrosanct.

It’s the military/security world, and it’s time to bust that taboo. A few facts:

• The United States spends nearly as much on military power as every other country in the world combined, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute. It says that we spend more than six times as much as the country with the next highest budget, China.

• The United States maintains troops at more than 560 bases and other sites abroad, many of them a legacy of a world war that ended 65 years ago. Do we fear that if we pull our bases from Germany, Russia might invade?

• The intelligence community is so vast that more people have “top secret” clearance than live in Washington, D.C.

• The U.S. will spend more on the war in Afghanistan this year, adjusting for inflation, than we spent on the Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, the Mexican-American War, the Civil War and the Spanish-American War combined.

This is the one area where elections scarcely matter. President Obama, a Democrat who symbolized new directions, requested about 6 percent more for the military this year than at the peak of the Bush administration.

“Republicans think banging the war drums wins them votes, and Democrats think if they don’t chime in, they’ll lose votes,” said Andrew Bacevich, an ex-military officer who now is a historian at Boston University. He is author of a thoughtful recent book, “Washington Rules: America’s Path to Permanent War.”

The costs of excessive reliance on military force are not just financial, of course, as Professor Bacevich knows well. His son, Andrew Jr., an Army first lieutenant, was killed in Iraq in 2007.

Let me be clear: I’m a believer in a robust military, which is essential for backing up diplomacy. But the implication is that we need a balanced tool chest of diplomatic and military tools alike. Instead, we have a billionaire military and a pauper diplomacy. The U.S. military now has more people in its marching bands than the State Department has in its foreign service — and that’s preposterous.

What’s more, if you’re carrying an armload of hammers, every problem looks like a nail. The truth is that military power often isn’t very effective at solving modern problems, like a nuclear North Korea or an Iran that is on the nuclear path. Indeed, in an age of nationalism, our military force is often counterproductive.

After the first gulf war, the United States retained bases in Saudi Arabia on the assumption that they would enhance American security. Instead, they appear to have provoked fundamentalists like Osama bin Laden into attacking the U.S. In other words, hugely expensive bases undermined American security (and we later closed them anyway). Wouldn’t our money have been better spent helping American kids get a college education?

Paradoxically, it’s often people with experience in the military who lead the way in warning against overinvestment in arms. It was President Dwight Eisenhower who gave the strongest warning: “Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.” And in the Obama administration, it is Defense Secretary Robert Gates who has argued that military spending on things large and small can and should expect closer, harsher scrutiny; it is Secretary Gates who has argued most eloquently for more investment in diplomacy and development aid.

American troops in Afghanistan are among the strongest advocates of investing more in schools there because they see firsthand that education fights extremism far more effectively than bombs. And here’s the trade-off: For the cost of one American soldier in Afghanistan for one year, you could build about 20 schools.

There are a few signs of hope in the air. The Simpson-Bowles deficit commission proposes cutting money for armaments, along with other spending. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton unveiled a signature project, the quadrennial diplomacy and development review, which calls for more emphasis on aid and diplomacy in foreign policy.

“Leading through civilian power saves lives and money,” Mrs. Clinton noted, and she’s exactly right. The review is a great document, but we’ll see if it can be implemented — especially because House Republicans are proposing cuts in the State Department budget.

They should remind themselves that in the 21st century, our government can protect its citizens in many ways: financing research against disease, providing early childhood programs that reduce crime later, boosting support for community colleges, investing in diplomacy that prevents costly wars.

As we cut budgets, let’s remember that these steps would, on balance, do far more for the security of Americans than a military base in Germany.

I invite you to comment on this column on my blog, On the Ground. Please also join me on Facebook, watch my YouTube videos and follow me on Twitter.


They didn't mention it in the op-ed, but it's funny how Tea Party people are so much for cutting spending... except the military.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 8:20 pm 
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I still maintain that even if we put the ultra-conservative Tea Partiers into power any spending cuts on "liberal" programs would be more than compensated for by increases in military spending and "border security" to meet the TP's obsessive-compulsive standards in these areas.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 8:48 pm 
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In my opinion, the only good thing our tax money is spent on is the military.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 9:17 pm 
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We need to be strong militarily. It's the right thing to do. I think if we pulled inward too fast we'd create an inevitable vacuum that someone less savory could fill. Do we really want China or Russia carrying the big stick? However, there are cuts that can be made. We have more Admirals than we do ships for example. We need to spend smarter, look at the long term picture and just not today's pricetag.

I'd like to see us begin to draw down our presence in Germany and Japan. We're there to defend them since they aren't allowed to have sizable armies of their own iirc. So treaties would have to be changed in order for us to draw down in these areas. A President who is truely serious about intelligently cutting military spending (as opposed to using it as a foil to attack the other side of the Isle) could begin to slowly work on this.

We have to do the right thing and get Afghanistan under control and into stable, friendly hands. Otherwise we'll just be back again in a few years like we did in Iraq.

What you got against boarder security?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:12 am 
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I agree that it needs to be strong, but probably not this strong:

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From here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... penditures

I think the money could be better used elsewhere. Obviously having a strong military is very helpful, but alternatively we could be paying off the national debt, investing in scientific research, boosting our communication infrastructure, bullet trains, etc.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:32 am 
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Instead of spending money we didn't have on 800B of stimulus we could have not increased the nation debt. So it's just a matter of perpective. Ideally we wouldn't be spending any money with didn't really have.

Like I said there's a right and wrong way to do it, and its been a long time since either side of the isle seriously looked at the issue.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:21 am 
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I thought any numbers surrounding military spending in China are guesses? Didn't they secretly develop that missle that shot down their old weather satellite last year?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:27 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
I thought any numbers surrounding military spending in China are guesses? Didn't they secretly develop that missle that shot down their old weather satellite last year?


Even if they're estimates, I doubt they're more than 50% off... which would still put them at much less than us.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:36 am 
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Lex, the reason the op-ed didn't mention the Tea Party thing is because the majority of Tea Party folks would be happy to reduce foreign presence. There's a strong sympathy for withdrawing from Afghanistan and Iraq and downsizing our infantry and Air Force.

Border security is not equivalent to military spending.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 3:46 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Lex, the reason the op-ed didn't mention the Tea Party thing is because the majority of Tea Party folks would be happy to reduce foreign presence. There's a strong sympathy for withdrawing from Afghanistan and Iraq and downsizing our infantry and Air Force.


I did some quick Google searching, and you're right. My bad. However, I don't think Palin would cut spending if she is elected, even though she's a Tea Party advocate.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:18 pm 
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And now you've learned that not all people who try to associate themselves with the Tea Party are aligned with the majority of Tea Party attendees' policy outlooks. This, also, shouldn't be a shocker.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 10:06 am 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
And now you've learned that not all people who try to associate themselves with the Tea Party are aligned with the majority of Tea Party attendees' policy outlooks. This, also, shouldn't be a shocker.


This is the truth. The media keeps trying to catagorize the tea party movement but fails since there is no central figurehead. Palin is a barnacle.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:49 am 
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Lex Luthor wrote:
I agree that it needs to be strong, but probably not this strong:

Image

From here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... penditures

I think the money could be better used elsewhere. Obviously having a strong military is very helpful, but alternatively we could be paying off the national debt, investing in scientific research, boosting our communication infrastructure, bullet trains, etc.


I've repeatedly explained that comparing dollar expendiatures does not give any real comparison of military power. The U.S. expends more because A) we pay our soldiers far more than other countries with very large militaries like China and Russia, B) We rely more on advanced technology, as opposed to large numbers like China and Russia, in a large part because we both want our troops to survive as a society and because we realize that a soldier that survives and fights longer does more damage to the enemy and C) becuase we are a far larger country, geographically and in terms of population that either the UK or France, and in mny ways they get away with spending far less than they really should by hiding under our umbrella. Finally, again due to geography, we need to maintain a large Navy and Air Force, whereas Russia and China can focus more on land power without needing as much naval and air power to move it around.

Not only that but the "560 bases" figure is hugely suspect, and can only be arrived at by counting things like embassy protection details and each individual little combat base in Iraq and Afghanistan. All "bases" are not created equal, and a lot of those bases will disappear as we pull out of those countries. In fact, a few years ago the number 720 (or thereabouts) as being tossed about. Gee, where's those 160 bases go? Oh that's right, we pulled out a large portion of our Iraq presence and shut down immense numbers of bases, some large and many tiny and trivial in the first place.

Finally, your article cites such nonsense entities as the "Stockholm International Peace Research Institute" and talks about "cutting armaments" which really is not about funding at all, it's about wanting to cut the military personnel these people hate, and the weapons, aircraft, vehicles, and ships they think are icky and dirty and don't believe are necessary because they "prove" it to themselves by rhetorically asking "but why do they need it?" and thenrejecting any argument aas to why regardless of how grounded in reality it is by simply assuming everyone in the world is reasonable and wants peace more than they want advantage.

As I've pointed out before, there is room for cuts, and the proportion of forces we have should be readjusted to focus on protection of our lands, trade and trade routes, and to supoort "prompt and utter destruction" of threats, while avoiding long, nation-building wars like in Iraq and Afghanistan. There is plenty of room for reducing waste and increasing efficienc in spending. This nonsense about how military spending is some sort of sacred cow, however, is just that - nonsense. Plenty of weapons systems and other programs have already been cut, such as the DDG-1000 (which, in reality, was turning into a boondoggle), the CG(X), the F-22 and the FCS. This argument that still more need to be cut has notihng to do with finance; it has to do with people just not liking our military being so big.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:03 am 
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DE how do you feel about cutting spending by cutting scope (i.e. essentially providing defense forces for multiple countries)?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:22 am 
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Well, it's either make the necessary cuts (military and otherwise) to balance the budget and begin paying down the debt now, or have it all cut in the very near future.

You're bankrupt. You cannot just keep spending what you do not have.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:02 pm 
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Rorinthas wrote:
DE how do you feel about cutting spending by cutting scope (i.e. essentially providing defense forces for multiple countries)?


Depends what countries we're talking about. I don't have a basic problem with NATO; I have a problem with the fact that other NATO countries have made drastic cuts in the last 20 years, relying on us to foot the bill and then castigating us for having a powerful military.

South Korea I have no problem with; they actually do foot their own bill for the most part.

Iraq and Afghanistan we can kick to the curb any time now; they've had their chance. If the Taliban wants to take over, the Afghanis deserve it for letting them. Next time they **** around we can reduce Kabul and Kandahar's airports and any power plants in the country to smoking holes in the ground and let them dig themselves the **** out of the 17th century.

I would be more in favor of eliminating foriegn ground presence, aside from a few select items such as ABM batteries in SK and Europe, and a limited Air Force presence. I'd be more in favor of reducing the active Army in favor of Reserves and NG, maintaining the USMC, and focusing on the Navy and Air Force. In other words, maintain the ability to go help our allies rather than have a permenant defensive presence, especially in SK where they really don't need us anymore.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:21 pm 
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Sounds good to me.

For the record were pretty much done in Iraq as it was explained to me, just doing technical support.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:02 am 
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If we cut military spending the terrorists will win. Both parties agree. It must be true. The only way to ensure empire is to keep spending more on our military than any other country on the planet.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 4:32 pm 
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Military spending as a percentage of GDP in the US is not that high. There are many countries that are higher. If you rank it as a ratio of military spending per capita / GDP per capita, I don't think the US cracks the top 20 the last time I looked this up.

Of course this includes nations like North Korea and crappy African nations who spend like 20%+ of their GDP on the military, but IMHO it's a better metric than just looking at straight dollar amounts.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:15 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
Military spending as a percentage of GDP in the US is not that high. There are many countries that are higher. If you rank it as a ratio of military spending per capita / GDP per capita, I don't think the US cracks the top 20 the last time I looked this up.

Of course this includes nations like North Korea and crappy African nations who spend like 20%+ of their GDP on the military, but IMHO it's a better metric than just looking at straight dollar amounts.

I think you're high. ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:40 pm 
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Defense spending should be cut in half.


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If I missed it, I apologize, but I didn't see if the expenditures cited included the "Cost of War" spending that has been occurring since Afghanistan started. That funding does not appear in the regular military budget and is appropriated on top of that budget. That will go away sometime in the next few years as Iraq continues to draw down and we start lessening our involvement in Afghanistan.

If the figures cited do include that amount, you'll see a reduction in spending (just not the budget). If it doesn't, then we spend even more then is listed. The "Cost of War" has been beneficial to the military. Many of my friends, particularly in the reserves, have been able to get training and equipment that they desperately needed after the Clinton era. Items they need to do their jobs. Everyone knew it was finite though and the various branches have hopefully planned accordingly.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:26 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Defense spending should be cut in half.


I'm not saying I disagree with you that there needs to be large cuts, but the 1/2 figure seems fairly arbitrary to me. How did you come up with that number, and how do yuou know you couldn't cut more, or would be able to cut less?

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:07 pm 
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I'd support cutting military spending if we pulled out of every base that was not in the United States and told the rest of the world to **** off and solve their own problems.

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