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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 3:19 am 
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Glenn schooled them. It saddens me that Obama's top officials are either retarded or lying through their teeth.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 6:35 am 
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Who is the bag of smashed **** who kept saying he committed a crime from publishing the documents?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 3:30 pm 
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And now Greenwald. I'd actually like to hear Monte's take on this guy now.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:27 pm 
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That Glenn guy is good. I loved it when he asked, "Why would you even say that to viewers?"


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:16 pm 
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Dash wrote:
And now Greenwald. I'd actually like to hear Monte's take on this guy now.


Don't make me ban you! :p~~


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:30 pm 
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http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn ... index.html

Glenn Greenwald wrote:
The video of the CNN debate I did last night about WikiLeaks with former Bush Homeland Security Adviser (and CNN contributor) Fran Townsend and CNN anchor Jessica Yellin is posted below. The way it proceeded was quite instructive to me and I want to make four observations about the discussion:

(1) Over the last month, I've done many television and radio segments about WikiLeaks and what always strikes me is how indistinguishable -- identical -- are the political figures and the journalists. There's just no difference in how they think, what their values and priorities are, how completely they've ingested and how eagerly they recite the same anti-WikiLeaks, "Assange = Saddam" script. So absolute is the WikiLeaks-is-Evil bipartisan orthodoxy among the Beltway political and media class (forever cemented by the joint Biden/McConnell decree that Assange is a "high-tech Terrorist,") that you're viewed as being from another planet if you don't spout it. It's the equivalent of questioning Saddam's WMD stockpile in early 2003.

It's not news that establishment journalists identify with, are merged into, serve as spokespeople for, the political class: that's what makes them establishment journalists. But even knowing that, it's just amazing, to me at least, how so many of these "debates" I've done involving one anti-WikiLeaks political figure and one ostensibly "neutral" journalist -- on MSNBC with The Washington Post's Jonathan Capehart and former GOP Congresswoman Susan Molinari, on NPR with The New York Times' John Burns and former Clinton State Department official James Rubin, and last night on CNN with Yellin and Townsend -- entail no daylight at all between the "journalists" and the political figures. They don't even bother any longer with the pretense that they're distinct or play different assigned roles. I'm not complaining here -- Yellin was perfectly fair and gave me ample time -- but merely observing how inseparable are most American journalists from the political officials they "cover."

(2) From the start of the WikiLeaks controversy, the most striking aspect for me has been that the ones who are leading the crusade against the transparency brought about by WikiLeaks -- the ones most enraged about the leaks and the subversion of government secrecy -- have been . . . America's intrepid Watchdog journalists. What illustrates how warped our political and media culture is as potently as that? It just never seems to dawn on them -- even when you explain it -- that the transparency and undermining of the secrecy regime against which they are angrily railing is supposed to be . . . what they do.

What an astounding feat to train a nation's journalist class to despise above all else those who shine a light on what the most powerful factions do in the dark and who expose their corruption and deceit, and to have journalists -- of all people -- lead the way in calling for the head of anyone who exposes the secrets of the powerful. Most ruling classes -- from all eras and all cultures -- could only fantasize about having a journalist class that thinks that way, but most political leaders would have to dismiss that fantasy as too extreme, too implausible, to pursue. After all, how could you ever get journalists -- of all people -- to loathe those who bring about transparency and disclosure of secrets? But, with a few noble exceptions, that's exactly the journalist class we have.

There will always be a soft spot in my heart for Jessica Yellin because of that time when she unwittingly (though still bravely) admitted on air that -- when she worked at MSNBC -- NBC's corporate executives constantly pressured the network's journalists to make their reporting favorable to George Bush and the Iraq War (I say "unwittingly" because she quickly walked back that confession after I and others wrote about it and a controversy ensued). But, as Yellin herself revealed in that moment of rare TV self-exposure, that's the government-subservient corporate culture in which these journalists are trained and molded.

(3) It's extraordinary how -- even a full month into the uproar over the diplomatic cable release -- extreme misinformation still pervades these discussions, usually without challenge. It's understandable that on the first day or in the first week of a controversy, there would be some confusion; but a full month into it, the most basic facts are still being wildly distorted. Thus, there was Fran Townsend spouting the cannot-be-killed lie that WikiLeaks indiscriminately dumped all the cables. And I'm absolutely certain that had I not objected, that absolute falsehood would have been unchallenged by Yellin and allowed to be transmitted to CNN viewers as Truth. The same is true for the casual assertion -- as though it's the clearest, most obvious fact in the world -- that Assange "committed crimes" by publishing classified information or that what he's doing is so obviously different than what investigative journalists routinely do. These are the unchallenged falsehoods transmitted over and over, day after day, to the American viewing audience.

(4) If one thinks about it, there's something quite surreal about sitting there listening to a CNN anchor and her fellow CNN employee angrily proclaim that Julian Assange is a "terrorist" and a "criminal" when the CNN employee doing that is . . . . George W. Bush's Homeland Security and Terrorism adviser. Fran Townsend was a high-level national security official for a President who destroyed another nation with an illegal, lie-fueled military attack that killed well over 100,000 innocent people, created a worldwide torture regime, illegally spied on his own citizens without warrants, disappeared people to CIA "black sites," and erected a due-process-free gulag where scores of knowingly innocent people were put in cages for years. Julian Assange never did any of those things, or anything like them. But it's Assange who is the "terrorist" and the "criminal."

Do you think Jessica Yellin would ever dare speak as scornfully and derisively about George Bush or his top officials as she does about Assange? Of course not. Instead, CNN quickly hires Bush's Homeland Security Adviser who then becomes Yellin's colleague and partner in demonizing Assange as a "terrorist." Or consider the theme that framed last night's segment: Assange is profiting off classified information by writing a book! Beyond the examples I gave, Bob Woodward has become a very rich man by writing book after book filled with classified information about America's wars which his sources were not authorized to give him. Would Yellin ever in a million years dare lash out at Bob Woodward the way she did Assange? To ask the question is to answer it (see here as CNN's legal correspondent Jeffrey Toobin is completely befuddled in the middle of his anti-WikiLeaks rant when asked by a guest, Clay Shirky, to differentiate what Woodward continuously does from what Assange is doing).

They're all petrified to speak ill of Bob Woodward because he's a revered spokesman of the royal court to which they devote their full loyalty. Julian Assange, by contrast, is an actual adversary -- not a pretend one -- of that royal court. And that -- and only that -- is what is driving virtually this entire discourse:


Glenn wrote a piece about this.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 11:07 pm 
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Has wikileaks uncovered anything of substance? Greenwald seems to believe Assange has validated all of his fevered Bush tropes. The one valid point he makes is that the documents weren't dumped wholesale.

This whole thing seems to be a lot of nothing built up by whatever people project onto it.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:50 am 
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Dash wrote:
The one valid point he makes is that the documents weren't dumped wholesale.

No, the one valid point he makes is the idiocy of "investigative journalists" getting enraged over investigative journalism.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:55 am 
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Dash wrote:
Has wikileaks uncovered anything of substance? Greenwald seems to believe Assange has validated all of his fevered Bush tropes. The one valid point he makes is that the documents weren't dumped wholesale.

This whole thing seems to be a lot of nothing built up by whatever people project onto it.


There are many things of substance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contents_o ... ables_leak


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:42 am 
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Screeling wrote:
Dash wrote:
The one valid point he makes is that the documents weren't dumped wholesale.

No, the one valid point he makes is the idiocy of "investigative journalists" getting enraged over investigative journalism.


Im having trouble distinguishing between "investigative journalism" and someone stealing files and funneling them to Assange in order to unleash "worldwide anarchy in CSV [comma separated value] format."

And what massive conspiracies were revealed? We spy on other nations via the UN? *gasp*

Should be real easy to get intelligence now I'm sure. So far they've achieved that, and of course making the government clamp down even harder on information making it that much less transparent.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:49 am 
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Oops I stand corrected, here's something from Lex's wiki link:

Quote:
Perhaps the most sensitive of all releases as of 6 December was a cable from the U.S. State Department sent in February 2009 referencing the Critical Foreign Dependencies Initiative and listing installations and infrastructure worldwide that it considered critical to protect U.S. interests from terrorists. Before releasing this list WikiLeaks had deliberately removed details of names and locations, but much was still revealed. Ostensibly the list does not include any military facilities. Instead it includes key facilities that if attacked could disrupt the global supply chain and global communications, as well as goods and services important to the U.S. and its economy


What a hero.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 12:56 pm 
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He is a hero Dash. Or would you prefer the government continue to hide embarrassing things by simply labeling them Confidential? You know like sec of State telling diplomats to try to steal credit card information of foreign nationals?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:51 pm 
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Whats embarassing about the names of our confidential informants in Afganistan?
He's releasing things that are embarrassing as well as things that are genuinely detrimental to the proper business of the federal government.

Since he's doing both I'm inclined to believe he cares nothing about " your cause" or "freedom" and cared only about the fame and trappings and folk hero worship he gets from it.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:16 pm 
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Rorinthas wrote:
...detrimental to the proper business of the federal government.

The entirety of our government's "business" should be public knowledge to its citizens. It's unfortunate that the entire world can read these as well, but that's a price we're having to pay for something we always should have had.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:25 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
Rorinthas wrote:
...detrimental to the proper business of the federal government.

The entirety of our government's "business" should be public knowledge to its citizens. It's unfortunate that the entire world can read these as well, but that's a price we're having to pay for something we always should have had.


Really? You don't believe there should be any secrets at all? That's amazingly niave.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:26 pm 
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Rorinthas wrote:
Whats embarassing about the names of our confidential informants in Afganistan?


Not sure, but he didn't release them. Certain things were withheld because he felt it might be damaging to ongoing operations or the lives of innocent people. What you're hearing is the propaganda of groups intent on villifying Assange.

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He's releasing things that are embarrassing as well as things that are genuinely detrimental to the proper business of the federal government.

Since he's doing both I'm inclined to believe he cares nothing about " your cause" or "freedom" and cared only about the fame and trappings and folk hero worship he gets from it.


Anything detrimental to the proper business of the federal government these days is going to be beneficial to freedom, since the US governments "proper business" these days is nothing but infringing upon that freedom.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:29 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
The entirety of our government's "business" should be public knowledge to its citizens. It's unfortunate that the entire world can read these as well, but that's a price we're having to pay for something we always should have had.



While I agree with you for the vast majority of government-related things there Lenas, I think there has to be an area of secrecy when it comes to things like intelligence and military operations.

It's a fine line to walk, and I don't know who to give the decision to in an ideal world. To say that there should be no secrets, however, is to say that we basically can't use any covert anything ever.

Am I invoking Godwin's if I bring up D Day? :p

I'm not sure how things like risk analysis fits in, either. Do we not want the government to create such reports, pinpointing where we can be hurt most and how to prepare for it? If we do want them, in a 100% transparent government we'd have to be fine with our worst enemies knowing where we think our softest spots are.

I'm not going to say that any lowering of security is always a bad thing no matter what the tradeoff is... but taking the fully transparent approach is definitely seeing things in a black and white worldview.


Last edited by Noggel on Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:29 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Really? You don't believe there should be any secrets at all?


In a perfect world. We're talking hypothetical here.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:37 pm 
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The way I see it, Wikileaks didn't make the government look bad. The government made the government look bad.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:57 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
He is a hero Dash. Or would you prefer the government continue to hide embarrassing things by simply labeling them Confidential? You know like sec of State telling diplomats to try to steal credit card information of foreign nationals?


Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding, but are you saying he is a hero for stealing secret information that disclosed the government trying to steal secret information?

I still say he's only in this for personal aggrandizement. The only thing he's accomplished is making the government less likely to be transparent as well as making intelligence and diplomacy much more difficult.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:56 pm 
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Dash wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
He is a hero Dash. Or would you prefer the government continue to hide embarrassing things by simply labeling them Confidential? You know like sec of State telling diplomats to try to steal credit card information of foreign nationals?


Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding, but are you saying he is a hero for stealing secret information that disclosed the government trying to steal secret information?

I still say he's only in this for personal aggrandizement. The only thing he's accomplished is making the government less likely to be transparent as well as making intelligence and diplomacy much more difficult.


Assange did not steal secret infomation.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:19 pm 
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Dash wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
He is a hero Dash. Or would you prefer the government continue to hide embarrassing things by simply labeling them Confidential? You know like sec of State telling diplomats to try to steal credit card information of foreign nationals?


Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding, but are you saying he is a hero for stealing secret information that disclosed the government trying to steal secret information?

I still say he's only in this for personal aggrandizement. The only thing he's accomplished is making the government less likely to be transparent as well as making intelligence and diplomacy much more difficult.



Ok seriously what the ****?

Its only been documented on here about thirty times that HE DIDN'T STEAL ANYTHING and you're still repeating that MSM soundbite?

If you cannot even get the most basic facts of what is happening down, or perhaps in this case refuse to admit them -what the hell is the point of talking with you?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:16 pm 
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A distinction without much difference. The Sec of State in your accusation didnt steal anything either.

Assange didnt personally steal it, he just publicized stolen documents and provides the format for others to do more of the same. Does that make it better?

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Dash wrote:
Assange didnt personally steal it, he just publicized stolen documents and provides the format for others to do more of the same. Does that make it better?



Yes, it does make it better. Without actions like that, Richard Nixon never loses the presidency. The very actions certain media outlets are condemning Wikileaks/Assange for, they take advantage of themselves.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:44 pm 
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The media enjoy that 1st Amendment right because they are not (supposed to be?) selectively publishing towards a political agenda. I'm not entirely comfortable with lumping Assange into the 4th estate.

For instance, I'm not at all sure I want to extend to him the leniency often afforded to journalists in protecting his sources. Note that it's not a right in the US even for the media, by the way. Similarly, in the nations where journalists are afforded such a right, I don't think Assange qualifies. Not that it matters, since Assange is only interested in targetting US gov't, and I don't think any other gov'ts are going to even want to go exposing his sources so we can prosecute them.

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