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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:11 pm 
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Dash wrote:
This is basically what I'm getting at too. Taly does seem to be arguing location makes you human or not and thus protected (or not) by the law.


Location determines whether or not the law considers you human and therefore protects you. That isn't an argument, it's a fact. I'm not arguing whether that law is a good idea (in fact, I think it's a stupid place to put the legal line, I'm still in favor of outright outlawing the killing of the unborn. Instead, just induce labor at any stage and let the cards fall where they may. If it's a viable person, it will survive.) I'm arguing that it is what it is. This guy is guilty of multiple homicides. Nail him for it.

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 Post subject: Philly Abortion clinic
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:44 pm 
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http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/loc ... ell_012011

Not a comment on abortion, but any discussion would end up here anyway. Just incredibly **** up. Apparently the place was not even inspected since '93.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:45 pm 
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Talya wrote:
NephyrS wrote:
I think she (and I) have both been clear on the fact that we think late term (and so partial birth) abortions are morally wrong and should ideally not be illegal.


I think you meant "should ideally not be legal." Or perhaps "should ideally be illegal." But yeah.


Whoops. Changed.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:46 pm 
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:?: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5284 :?:


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:53 pm 
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Go go gadget topic merge!

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:02 pm 
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From what I've read, the guy running the clinic had a reputation for doing late-term abortions that no one else would do because they were illegal, and that none of the women he did this to were aware that he delivered their babies and then killed them. Plus, he also taught his undertrained staff to fudge ultrasounds in order to make the fetus appear smaller and younger than it actually was. He was intentionally doing this to justify performing inducing labor and murdering viable babies on women who were not able to legally get an abortion...all for money.

And women paid him lots of money for this service, that ethical abortion providers would not touch. It could be argued that that places like his "practice" is what could be expected to be much more common should all abortions be made illegal.

And he would not have gotten away with this for as long as he had if the state had not failed to properly monitor his facility. Fear of bad press should have resulted in a meticulous accounting of the facts, and not inaction. But now that inaction had resulted in the medical board looking especially incompetent, instead.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:17 pm 
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Stathol wrote:
Go go gadget topic merge!


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:42 pm 
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Stathol got an achievement in this thread? That's scary in its own right.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:35 pm 
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Khross wrote:
What's the difference between this guy and George Tiller?


Tiller is (openly) considered a hero and a martyr by the pro-abortion zealots, while they'll have to publicly denounce this guy. Oh, and they were in different states when they went about their mass murders; with those two exceptions, nothing.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:37 pm 
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Rorinthas wrote:
I think everyone here can agree this individual needs to be proscuted to the fullest extent of the law.

Any objections?


I offer the standard objection that he shouldn't be "punished" but instead rehabilitated somehow.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:27 pm 
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Mookhow wrote:
Stathol wrote:
Go go gadget topic merge!


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:mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:59 pm 
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Foamy wrote:
Can the abortion proponents argue that what he was doing OK?
Putting aside our "omfg cute baby!" emotional appeal for the moment, let's take a look. I will not be wrapping any of this in spoiler tags. We've had enough knee-jerk reactions without reading a goddamn thing.

Quote:
Williams provided a grisly scenario of the shuttered abortion clinic: A search of the office last year by authorities found bags and bottles holding aborted fetuses scattered throughout the building. Jars containing the severed feet of babies lined a shelf. Furniture and equipment was blood-stained, dusty and broken.

Quote:
"It was a house of horrors beyond any type of definition or explanation I can humbly try to give," Williams told CNN. "And it's very sad for the women that were there, that were subjected to such horrific and barbaric -- I would say medical treatment but it wasn't medical -- treatment.

"My grasp of the English language doesn't really allow me to fully describe how horrific this clinic was -- rotting bodies, fetal remains, the smell of urine throughout, blood-stained," Williams continued.

Quote:
Gosnell, 69, is not a board-certified obstetrician or gynecologist, Williams said.

Originally, he said, the clinic used another doctor as a consultant so it could receive a license to perform abortions in 1979.

Quote:
Gosnell is also accused of reusing unsanitary instruments; performing procedures in filthy rooms, including some having litter boxes and animals present during operations; and allowing unlicensed employees to perform operations and administer anesthesia, including a teenage high school student, Williams said.

Gosnell's wife, Pearl, 49, of Philadelphia, is also facing charges of providing an abortion at 24 or more weeks, conspiracy and other related charges, Williams said. She has no medical license and is accused of performing illegal abortions at the clinic, he said.

Quote:
"The message I want to get out is that reproductive health services in the city are safe. I don't want this to change women's views of the services," Schwarz said. "This was an unusual provider."

Law enforcement officers came upon "the medical abuses" while investigating tips that the doctor had been illegally selling thousands of prescriptions for OxyContin and other narcotics to "patients" that he never examined, Williams said.

The doctor himself was seldom present, the district attorney charged. In his absence, untrained, unsupervised workers, including the teenage girl, routinely injected sedatives into women undergoing illegal late-term abortions, he alleged.

Quote:
Seven other employees at the clinic were also charged, according to the district attorney's statement:

-- Lynda Williams, 42, of Wilmington, Delaware, also is charged with third-degree murder in Mongar's death. Williams is accused of being an unlicensed worker who routinely performed illegal operations and administered anesthesia. She is also facing murder charges for the death of a viable baby born alive, abortion at 24 or more weeks and other related offenses.

-- Sherry West, 51, of Newark, Delaware, is charged with third-degree murder. She was allegedly an unlicensed worker at the clinic who routinely performed illegal operations and administered anesthesia. She is also facing a charge of providing an abortion at 24 or more weeks and other related offenses.

-- Adrienne Moton, 33, of Upper Darby, Pennsylvania, is charged with murder in the death of a viable baby born alive. She was allegedly an unlicensed worker at the clinic who routinely and illegally administered anesthesia to patients.

-- Steven Massof, 48, of Pittsburgh, is facing murder charges for the deaths of two viable babies born alive. Massof, a medical school graduate without a license or any certification, allegedly worked as a doctor at the clinic. He is also facing conspiracy and other related charges.

-- Eileen O'Neill, 54, of Phoenixville, Pennsylvania, is a medical school graduate who allegedly worked as a doctor at the clinic without a license or certification. She is facing theft by deception, conspiracy, perjury and false swearing charges.

-- Tina Baldwin, 45, of Philadelphia, is facing charges of racketeering, conspiracy and corruption of a minor. She was allegedly an unlicensed worker at the clinic who illegally administered anesthesia to patients and allowed her 15-year-old daughter to administer anesthesia to patients as well.

-- Office manager Maddline Joe, 53, of Philadelphia, is charged with conspiracy.
No, abortion proponents can't argue what he was doing was okay. This has nothing to do with abortion at all. He was apparently unlicensed. His entire staff appears to have been unlicensed. His clinic sounds like an unsafe and unsanitary environment. They're all practicing medicine without a license. That's against the law, regardless of what they're doing. He's violating nearly every part of the code of ethics for the medical profession.

This man is guilty of malpractice. The only reason we have regulations on the medical profession is to keep guys like this from practicing medicine.
Quote:
But a grand jury investigation found that health and licensing officials had received repeated reports about Gosnell's dangerous practices for two decades with no action taken, even after the agencies learned that women had died during routine abortions under Gosnell's care, the district attorney's statement said.
Sounds like that government is really on the ball, doesn't it? Go ahead and convince yourselves this is an abortion issue, though.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:09 pm 
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No need for the self-convincing. As I stated before, this was mass murder.

It sounds to me like you're saying that if they had all been licensed and the place clean with shiny, sterile, stainless steel bowls to drop the babies in after they stabbed them with the sparkling, sterile scalpels and scissors, then it would have been an abortion issue.

It would still be mass murder.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:31 pm 
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Vindicarre wrote:
No need for the self-convincing. As I stated before, this was mass murder.

It sounds to me like you're saying that if they had all been licensed and the place clean with shiny, sterile, stainless steel bowls to drop the babies in after they stabbed them with the sparkling, sterile scalpels and scissors, then it would have been an abortion issue.

It would still be mass murder.


Had the place been up to spec and following the regs, not only would they not have been birthing babies then killing them, but the "illegal late-term abortions" would not even have been performed. This clinic was performing "abortions" that no other abortion clinic would even consider, just to make a quick buck. At this stage, even had they killed the fetus in utero, it would still have been illegal, and resulted in a whole lot of charges. As it stands they birthed them first. At that point it stops even being an "illegal abortion" and simply becomes murdering children.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:46 pm 
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This doctor was also not an OB/GYN. BIG difference from one at a licensed facility that complies with the law.

I live outside of Philly. I heard WAY too many details on one of the local radio stations. This man was nothing but a butcher.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:00 pm 
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Personally, if at that point in time, the foetus is viable outside of the womb (without you stabbing it with something) then it's murder if you do. Late term 'abortions' are essentially killing the child to save the mother, and should only be performed under such circumstances. However when the foetus aborted is physically viable without the mother, then it should be put up for adoption (after incubation in a hospital somewhere) and not murdered.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:37 pm 
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Lydiaa wrote:
Personally, if at that point in time, the foetus is viable outside of the womb (without you stabbing it with something) then it's murder if you do. Late term 'abortions' are essentially killing the child to save the mother, and should only be performed under such circumstances. However when the foetus aborted is physically viable without the mother, then it should be put up for adoption (after incubation in a hospital somewhere) and not murdered.


That is how I believe it should be as well.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:09 pm 
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The man is not a doctor. He had people working under him who were also not doctors or nurses performing illegal medical procedures. Rather than practicing medicine in a safe and clean environment, he was doing so in a clinic that resembles a scene from a crappy horror movie. How do you justify it? You don't! He violated every **** point in the code of medical ethics. The man is a criminal! He could've been harvesting kidneys, except that wouldn't be anywhere near as sensational because Jesus never said your kidney is alive from the moment of conception.

I support post-birth abortion with scissors, and I find what he was doing to be morally and ethically repugnant.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:26 pm 
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He's being charged with murder though, not malpractice or operating in a dirty environment. Clearly you cant justify what he did but I think the point stands, there are many in the "pro-choice" movement who want zero restrictions on abortion. They will all tell you this is about a woman's choice and it's between her and her doctor. Having that choice carried out in such a grotesque manner suddenly puts it in a different light.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:26 pm 
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@Corolinth

I love where you just add in Jesus to my argument. I am against abortions because it Is the ending of a human life.

Jesus plays absolutely ZERO part in how I feel about this.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:46 pm 
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Foamy,

I am likely wrong, but his comment seemed to be more about why this story would not have been "newsworthy" had he been harvesting kidneys as opposed to killing babies.

You see it as wrong for your very personal reason, but had this guy been harvesting kidneys like this... do you think it would have received the news attention it did.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:51 pm 
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Foamy wrote:
@Corolinth

I love where you just add in Jesus to my argument. I am against abortions because it Is the ending of a human life.

Jesus plays absolutely ZERO part in how I feel about this.


I would agree on this particular case. It doesn't take "Jesus" or any other religion to view any viable fetus as a human life and give it the same rights as any other, so I'm fine with that, and even agree. I do not agree with your statement though as it pertains to abortion in general. It can be a shapeless lump of a few dozen cells without heart, brain or nervous system, and pro-lifers still foam at the mouth. What makes them assign some sacred personhood to that useless, microscopic cellular mass? It's obviously not a discrete human life by any logical definition (Elmarnieh's isn't)...unless one assumes it has something science cannot see, something that makes it human--whether you want to call that a "soul" or not doesn't matter, the point is, such belief requires faith and has no basis in logic or rationality.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:57 pm 
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I am aware that when I make statements like that, there will be statistical outliers who have not based their stance on religion.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:36 pm 
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Vindicarre wrote:
No need for the self-convincing. As I stated before, this was mass murder.

It sounds to me like you're saying that if they had all been licensed and the place clean with shiny, sterile, stainless steel bowls to drop the babies in after they stabbed them with the sparkling, sterile scalpels and scissors, then it would have been an abortion issue.

It would still be mass murder.


Yes, it would. If you have a medical license, and perform the abortion according to established guidelines for late-term abortions, it's the crime of "providing an abortion after 24 weeks," IE not murder. If you don't have a license or don't adhere to the guidelines, it's murder. The first crime is the one they even charged his female assistant with. Of course, even if he had a license he's still be going away for life for all the other hygiene and practical issues, (a patient died in his office, remember) but the abortions would not be murder.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:39 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Talya wrote:
Are you? What, exactly, is your point? Killing unborn fetuses = Abortion. Killing babies already born = Murder. Clear, obvious, distinction. What's not to get?


No, we get it - the point is it's retarded. 6 inches one direction, it's legal, 6 inches the other direction, it's murder.


One minute one way or the other is the difference between legal and 10 years mandatory minimum for statutory, what's your point? You have to draw the line somewhere.


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