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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:04 am 
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Lex Luthor wrote:
TheRiov wrote:
a) The Na'vi user neurotoxins for their arrows. Poison sucks for hunting as it tends to taint food. While it could have been a recent development, it seems unlikely.
b) the Na'vi have warriors... not hunters... warriors.
c) Humans hadn't been on Pandora that long yet several generations ago someone still had to tame that beast thing and unite the tribes


Apparently it is very rare. Like I said, a utopia. Also there are clearly ceremonial reasons for having warriors and weaponry. Proving your strength against others, etc. Several generations ago there might have been another external threat.

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To quote Pandorapedia:

'The widespread access to natural resources has also helped limit (but not eliminate) warfare among the various Na'vi clans.'


According to the movie the blue chick's grandpa (who flew the giant mega-bug that the main character also later tamed) united the clans during the "Time of Sorrows".

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:50 am 
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Talya wrote:
He touched on my issue with Avatar though, later on.

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And there's the final nail in this absurd 3D show: The eyeglasses. Simply, watching a $200+ million dollar movie with $.03 crappy plastic glasses is just silly. They are not only optically poor but they take almost a full stop of light out of the image. That's almost half the amount of light! None of the prints or projectors I have seen 3D movies in properly compensate to counteract that loss of light. When I saw Alice In Wonderland at one of the industry screenings—where you think it would be dialed in just right—the image was still painfully dark. The situation in a majority of theaters out there is as bad or worse.

This is probably pretty damn wrong.

The 1/2 factor is the intensity of polarized light compared to unpolarized light entering the polaroid filter. So, yes -- if you look around outside the theater, you'll get this full stop difference in brightness he's talking about. However, you're also not being fed a 3D movie as the input.

The reason the 3D effect works is because there are two orthogonally (relative to each other) polarized images being superimposed. These polarized images are being either almost completely blocked (to the "wrong" eye) or passed with their intensity almost unchanged to the "right" one.

Now, it's true that the projector light needs to be twice as bright to get the proper levels through the polaroid filter in the projector, but if it's not, that's the projector manufacturer's fault, not the cheap glasses'. It's not like theaters are just slapping a filter over two of their normal projectors' lenses, after all.

So, yeah. This guy is talking out of his ***.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:55 am 
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He may have the cause wrong, but the effect is dead on -- 3D movies always look dark and faded. (FarSky has commented on this, too.) The color and brightness is terrible compared to their 2D counterparts, in every theater i've ever been in.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:56 am 
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double projectors, (more expensive but not prohibitivly so) more reflective screen would counter this effect


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:00 am 
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TheRiov wrote:
double projectors, (more expensive but not prohibitivly so) more reflective screen would counter this effect


Possibly. Right now it's not being done, however. (or perhaps just "not done enough." Not all theaters have the capability of showing 3D, so they already have to have specialized equipment.)

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:19 am 
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I think a lot of movie houses are likely skimping on their 3D equipment.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:52 am 
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Talya wrote:
He may have the cause wrong, but the effect is dead on -- 3D movies always look dark and faded. (FarSky has commented on this, too.) The color and brightness is terrible compared to their 2D counterparts, in every theater i've ever been in.


Perhaps you've only seen them at cheap or shitty theatres. I've seen 4 3D films now, 3 recently, and none of them were noticably dimmer or had poor color/brightness. And I'm VERY visually sensative, it's something that I would have noticed.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:59 am 
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I see about a third of the movies I watch in an IMAX theater, and typically go to the premium movie chains as opposed to the tiny old ones. They all have the same problem with 3D.

For the most part, 3D is a tacky gimmick that adds nothing to the viewing experience but does take away from it. Mainstream 3D needs to die. It won't, but it needs to do so.

The reason it's useless (especially in the subtle way Avatar handled it) is the human eye and brain naturally creates 3D perspective out of a 2D image through forced perspective. We see 2D images in 3D. We don't see a flat movie screen as a flat surface, but see the images in the foreground in the foreground, and the image sin the background in the background. Yes, Avatar gives our eyes what they are used to seeing in real life, but if our visual cortex is interpolating properly, it only gives us what we were already seeing in "2D" anyway.

Where 3D effects shine is when they bring the action out at you ("in your face" 3D, perfected at Disney World where they also blow gusts of wind at you or splash you from jets in the seat in front of you at the theater), or when they contrast a 2D surface mixed with a 3D one for the visual shock it gives you (Pixar's "Day & Night"). The visual cortex will not naturally create these types of effects out of a 2D image, so it ends up being very effective.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 6:54 am 
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I am amazed anyone says 3d doesn't cut brightness - I've seen Beowulf, avatar and toy story in 3d, at different high end theatres, and they all universally sucked, to the point I actually tried watching without the specs.

My eyesight is -9/-9.5 though ; perhaps folks with better eyes care less

Staying at home with plasma and blu ray from now on.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:55 am 
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This is a good letter from Walter Murch, Academy Award-winner editor and sound designer, explaining why "3D" doesn't and simply can't work.

http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2011/01/post_4.html

Quote:
Hello Roger,

I read your review of "Green Hornet" and though I haven't seen the film, I agree with your comments about 3D.

The 3D image is dark, as you mentioned (about a camera stop darker) and small. Somehow the glasses "gather in" the image -- even on a huge Imax screen -- and make it seem half the scope of the same image when looked at without the glasses.

I edited one 3D film back in the 1980's -- "Captain Eo" -- and also noticed that horizontal movement will strobe much sooner in 3D than it does in 2D. This was true then, and it is still true now. It has something to do with the amount of brain power dedicated to studying the edges of things. The more conscious we are of edges, the earlier strobing kicks in.

The biggest problem with 3D, though, is the "convergence/focus" issue. A couple of the other issues -- darkness and "smallness" -- are at least theoretically solvable. But the deeper problem is that the audience must focus their eyes at the plane of the screen -- say it is 80 feet away. This is constant no matter what.

But their eyes must converge at perhaps 10 feet away, then 60 feet, then 120 feet, and so on, depending on what the illusion is. So 3D films require us to focus at one distance and converge at another. And 600 million years of evolution has never presented this problem before. All living things with eyes have always focussed and converged at the same point.

If we look at the salt shaker on the table, close to us, we focus at six feet and our eyeballs converge (tilt in) at six feet. Imagine the base of a triangle between your eyes and the apex of the triangle resting on the thing you are looking at. But then look out the window and you focus at sixty feet and converge also at sixty feet. That imaginary triangle has now "opened up" so that your lines of sight are almost -- almost -- parallel to each other.

Image

Image

We can do this. 3D films would not work if we couldn't. But it is like tapping your head and rubbing your stomach at the same time, difficult. So the "CPU" of our perceptual brain has to work extra hard, which is why after 20 minutes or so many people get headaches. They are doing something that 600 million years of evolution never prepared them for. This is a deep problem, which no amount of technical tweaking can fix. Nothing will fix it short of producing true "holographic" images.

Consequently, the editing of 3D films cannot be as rapid as for 2D films, because of this shifting of convergence: it takes a number of milliseconds for the brain/eye to "get" what the space of each shot is and adjust.

And lastly, the question of immersion. 3D films remind the audience that they are in a certain "perspective" relationship to the image. It is almost a Brechtian trick. Whereas if the film story has really gripped an audience they are "in" the picture in a kind of dreamlike "spaceless" space. So a good story will give you more dimensionality than you can ever cope with.

So: dark, small, stroby, headache inducing, alienating. And expensive. The question is: how long will it take people to realize and get fed up?

All best wishes,

Walter Murch


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:10 pm 
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Murch brings up an interesting point, but I think he draws the wrong conclusions from it.

It's not that we can't do this, or even that some percentage will experience discomfort doing this. (I believe the second problem warrants further study -- I've never experienced this discomfort, and have to wonder if this is related to my fascination with "Magic Eye" type images dating all the way back to when Games Magazine first brought them to a mainstream audience in the mid-80's... did my early childhood experience with (consciously, even) forcing varying convergence at fixed focus depths "train away," as it were, my potential disposition for headaches when performing similar acts in 3D theaters?) The problem is that it doesn't mimic nature. It's like having a perfect depth of field, it just doesn't look right.

Now, if we're honest with ourselves, having an imperfect depth of field doesn't look right, either. And nobody will argue that a 2D movie or picture looks anything but 2D, either. This is a problem with film media that we've simply come to accept. When you take a picture, or a video, of something, it will always look flat, and the focus will always be controlled, hopefully with some degree of art and direction, by the cameraman, not our own wandering gaze.

3D can work, in that we can come, societally, to the same acceptance of this degree of unnaturalness as part of the media.

I believe, however, that before this occurs, we'll instead see technology move forward to combat it. Fifteen years down the road, for instance, I would not be surprised to see lightweight, high resolution glasses which will track eye movements and structural distension to analyze both where our eyes are looking, and how they're focusing, and construct an incoming wavefront to match an individual viewer's perspective.

This is essentially approaching holography, except that this approach would not require an "open space" for the hologram to inhabit. In other words, you could have a big picture in a little room, because instead of constructing the virtual image at the point of origin, instead you're reconstructing the image's projection, with full holographic waveform information, at a nearer point, and adjusting it to anticipate the eye's expected data.

So, in other words, before we become societally used to accepting the limitations of 3D, I expect our increasing pace of technology to render those limitations obsolete.

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"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:19 pm 
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Even if 3D "works," it's not "3D" until we get to the 3D hologram stage. What we call "3D" now is a weird, 2.5D hybridization. Maybe more like 2.25D.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:25 pm 
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I was trying to explain that point to my mother the other day. I get that the glasses make you look stupid. I get that people don't like it. I get that people think it's gimmicky. People also thought the transistor wasn't worth using, and transistor radios were cheap Japanese crap. Any technology in its infancy seems gimmicky.

Twenty years from now, some form of 3D display will be the standard for computer monitors. You can take that to the bank.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:32 pm 
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Well, what we call "2D" is a weird 2.25D hybridization, Farsky. There are all kinds of tricks to imply depth when you project a 3D image onto a 2D surface/screen. Vanishing points, focus, relative size...

I suppose South Park is pretty close to 2D. Maybe 2.1D.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:36 pm 
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It's an implication, yes, but it's not projecting a 3D image onto a 2D surface...you're projecting a 2D image of a three-dimensional image onto a 2D surface. Focus, perspective, etc. combine to create that image, but it's all a 2D representation of the original three-dimensional space.

I feel like we're getting into Magritte "This is not a pipe" area, here.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:52 pm 
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FarSky wrote:
2.5D hybridization
Kaffis Mark V wrote:
2.25D hybridization
I do not think that means what you think it means.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimension
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractal_dimension

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:53 pm 
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The salt shaker pictures are exactly why I didn't enjoy Avatar in 3D.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:53 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
FarSky wrote:
2.5D hybridization
Kaffis Mark V wrote:
2.25D hybridization
I do not think that means what you think it means.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimension
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractal_dimension

Using the colloquial.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2.5D


Screeling wrote:
The salt shaker pictures are exactly why I didn't enjoy Avatar in 3D.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:58 pm 
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Yes, I realize it is a commonly used term and not something you made up on the spot. It's not unlike the .5 that went on the end of the previous edition of D&D. I really wish people would stop doing that.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:01 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
Yes, I realize it is a commonly used term and not something you made up on the spot. It's not unlike the .5 that went on the end of the previous edition of D&D. I really wish people would stop doing that.


With D&D, you can blame software designers for fractional version numbers. D&D is just copying them.

With 3D...it's just an obvious way of saying "It's kinda like 3D, but not quite. It's 2D pretending to be 3D."

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me

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Last edited by Talya on Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:17 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Well, what we call "2D" is a weird 2.25D hybridization, Farsky. There are all kinds of tricks to imply depth when you project a 3D image onto a 2D surface/screen. Vanishing points, focus, relative size...

I suppose South Park is pretty close to 2D. Maybe 2.1D.



I wouldn't call natural perspective a "trick," per se. But I agree: the end result is we don't need 3D in order to see 3D. For example, you can get vertigo watching a big screen 2D film of a roller coaster ride. The moment you start watching a 2D film, your mind starts converting it to 3D immediately. (Hell, it does the same thing for still photographs.) Gaming is the same. I don't need 3D gaming glasses to be able to tell the Krogan that just got off the elevator is 250 feet away, I can already tell, and have taken cover and pulled out my sniper rifle. The "3D" experience adds nothing to that, other than forcing a perspective on us we can already see if our brain's visual processors are working right.

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But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me

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