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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:30 am 
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The US needs to take the position of "supporting Egypt" and make sure that is not "supporting X leader". We have dealt with Mubarak because he's the leader the Egyptians had. If Egyptians choose a new leader, we'll support them in that choice.

Hopefully, it's Al Baradei (sp?). If it's the Muslim Brotherhood, we reassess.

But if the people do not want Mubarak, then please peacefully select a new leader, and we'll carry on with business as usual.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:06 pm 
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We support freedom in Iran: Ahmedenijad
We support freedom in Palestine: Hamas
We support freedom in Lebanon: Hezbollah

From what I'm reading a transitional government into free elections down the line seems like the best bet. Mubarak put down any moderate groups and only the Muslim Brotherhood is organized at this point. By the way the MB has endorsed elBaredei, and he has gone on record saying they are moderate.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing- ... a-dictator

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ElBaradei brushed aside the concerns of the administration and many on Capitol Hill that an opening for the banned Muslim Brotherhood to take greater power in the country could result in an Islamist state. One of the Brotherhood's former members, Ayman al-Zawahri, is al-Qaeda's No. 2.

"This is total bogus that the Muslim Brotherhood are religiously conservative," he said. "They are no way extremists. They are no way using violence. They are not a majority of the Egyptian people. They will not be more than maybe 20 percent of the Egyptian people.

"You have to include them like, you know, new evangelical, you know, groups in the U.S., like the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem," ElBaradei said.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:44 pm 
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Talya wrote:
Hannibal wrote:
How about we just let Israel off the leash and let the IDF clean house?


Well, that's a bit premature at the moment. Mubarak has been one of Israel's biggest supporters in the region, consistantly blaming Hezbollah/Hamas for the flareups of violence.

This is what really sucks about this whole situation -- from a foreign policy standpoint, Mubarak has been ideal in almost every way. It's his domestic policies that are causing him trouble. If he gets ousted, I guarantee that what takes his place will not be nearly as friendly to the "West."


Sorry I should have been clearer. I didn't mean to say that the IDF needs to go into Egypt and clear house, I ment that the IDF needs to go fix the beef with nations like Iran. Right now they are two dogs snarling and snapping at each other through a big fence (The US). I'm suggestion that the US just stops making everyone play nice and let them sort their business out the way that their people understand.

The unrest isn't just limited to Egypt. Other Middle eastern countries are in turmoil as well. I really think that the dominos are starting to fall there. If the US keeps trying to keep them from falling, it's going to be even worse, ala Jimmy Carter and the Shah.

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 Post subject: Re: Egypt
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:50 pm 
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The US depends far too much on Middle Eastern oil in order to be able to risk all the infrastructure being destroyed by a major war, especially a potential nuclear war. This isn't a problem you can just make disappear, the first world depends on oil and even a 10% drop in supply would destroy every economy.


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 Post subject: Re: Egypt
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:55 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
The US depends far too much on Middle Eastern oil in order to be able to risk all the infrastructure being destroyed by a major war, especially a potential nuclear war. This isn't a problem you can just make disappear, the first world depends on oil and even a 10% drop in supply would destroy every economy.
Please, stop smoking crack with Markos Moulitsas.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:59 pm 
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The western economy depends on oil because our governments are being paid to depend on oil. The United States could shift completely away from oil within a few years if properly motivated.

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 Post subject: Re: Egypt
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:00 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
The US depends far too much on Middle Eastern oil in order to be able to risk all the infrastructure being destroyed by a major war, especially a potential nuclear war. This isn't a problem you can just make disappear, the first world depends on oil and even a 10% drop in supply would destroy every economy.



If you really believe this, then won't this be the impetus needed for innovation in renewable energy? The US can tap it's own oil reserves and keep going. Prices will go up for oil and we will lag for a bit, but I bet with our backs against the wall, the US private sector will make it happen.

Or in the other end of the spectrum, I bet the US could have a tap into an oil field over there in a week if left to do it.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:02 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
The western economy depends on oil because our governments are being paid to depend on oil. The United States could shift completely away from oil within a few years if properly motivated.


There is no technology even remotely close to viability that has the energy density needed to replace fossil fuels for transportation, even if we could somehow completely eliminate it for power generation.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:02 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
Corolinth wrote:
The western economy depends on oil because our governments are being paid to depend on oil. The United States could shift completely away from oil within a few years if properly motivated.
There is no technology even remotely close to viability that has the energy density needed to replace fossil fuels for transportation, even if we could somehow completely eliminate it for power generation.
In 1942, there was no technology remotely close to viability that had the destructive capability of a fission bomb.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:06 pm 
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Yes, but we didn't have to have consumers replace anything to take advantage of that. If we had the "miracle fuel" tomorrow, we'd still have to replace every single car on the road, unless its somehow backward compatible. Thus none of the emerging technologies qualify. I can't afford to run out and buy a new car, and i'm sure i'm not alone in that.

Sure we could do a conversion but that's gonna cost money too. So Miracle fuel would have to be a lot cheaper than Gasoline to make the conversion a sound investment. Again, we aren't there with any of the emerging fuels.

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Last edited by Rorinthas on Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:09 pm 
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Xequecal is completely wrong. We spend relatively no money on researching renewable energy compared to many other things. If there was a strong incentive, we would definitely have a working solution in just a few years.


Last edited by Lex Luthor on Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Egypt
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:10 pm 
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Actually, plenty of emerging technologies qualify as viable replacements for hydrocarbon based energy. Indeed, at least one segment of hydrocarbon based energy production could be replaced in its entirety by an alternative fuel within 5 years.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:11 pm 
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The grid is easy, but as I said we're still stuck with all the cars.

I agree it will take a crisis to kick us in the pants on this. After all we didn't really discover aluminum until we started running out of tin.

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Last edited by Rorinthas on Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:11 pm 
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Rorinthas wrote:
Yes, but we didn't have to have consumers replace anything to take advantage of that. If we had the "miracle fuel" tomorrow, we'd still have to replace every single car on the road, unless its somehow backward compatible. Thus none of the emerging technologies qualify. I can't afford to run out and buy a new car, and i'm sure i'm not alone in that.

Sure we could do a conversion but that's gonna cost money too. So Miracle fuel would have to be a lot cheaper than Gasoline to make the conversion a sound investment. Again, we aren't there with any of the emerging fuels.


Almost every car will already be replaced in 6 or 7 years.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:12 pm 
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Will it? Mines 8 and still ticking. As a hospital Valet I saw a lot of cars from the 80s

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:13 pm 
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Cars are disposable commodity items. They last about as long as the loan you take to buy them.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:18 pm 
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Rorinthas wrote:
Will it? Mines 8 and still ticking. As a hospital Valet I saw a lot of cars from the 80s



Wikipedia wrote:
In 2007 the overall median age for automobiles was 9.2 years


Ok, I was somewhat wrong. Still we are replacing automobiles every 9.2 years and that is just normally without any drastic action.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:20 pm 
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As Laforge would say: You don't have to take my word for it.

10.2 (so up 10% since 07).

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 Post subject: Re: Egypt
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:26 pm 
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Not a valid metric at all actually ...

I know 3 people whose every day drivers are older than the median age of this forum.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:52 pm 
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Hell, I drive an 86 suburban. That's almost as old as I am.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:02 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
There is no technology even remotely close to viability that has the energy density needed to replace fossil fuels for transportation, even if we could somehow completely eliminate it for power generation.
In 1942, there was no technology remotely close to viability that had the destructive capability of a fission bomb.


I see where you're going with this....

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:15 pm 
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Does anyone else find it ironic how many are protesting unemployment, and yet their protests are destroying the economy?


Last edited by Lex Luthor on Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Egypt
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:16 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Actually, plenty of emerging technologies qualify as viable replacements for hydrocarbon based energy. Indeed, at least one segment of hydrocarbon based energy production could be replaced in its entirety by an alternative fuel within 5 years.


I'd love to know what these are. There are plenty of technologies to replace fossil fuels when it comes to electricity generation, nuclear power being the most obvious, but nothing has the energy density to replace fossil fuels in motor vehicles. Electric cars barely work, and the technology definitely doesn't scale up well, you can't haul cargo with electric trucks for example.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:18 pm 
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The Tesla roadster can travel 245 miles before recharging. Also has 288 hp.

http://www.teslamotors.com/roadster/specs


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:33 pm 
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Lex Luthor wrote:
The Tesla roadster can travel 245 miles before recharging. Also has 288 hp.

http://www.teslamotors.com/roadster/specs


Yes, I said electric cars barely work. The Tesla roadster only functions because it's not designed to haul cargo. The entire design of the car is done around reducing weight. The chassis is aluminum instead of steel and it uses carbon-fiber composites. The batteries that give the car this range weigh half a ton. Not only is it wholly impractical to build pickup trucks and SUVs (let alone big ring long-haul trucks) out of aluminum and carbon fiber but the mass of batteries you would need to give these vehicles any kind of reasonable range would be absolutely absurd. You're talking 25 tons of batteries minimum for a big-rig truck, which would cost close to a million dollars.


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