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 Post subject: Ohio Abortion Law
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:08 am 
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Ohio Republican lawmakers introduce slew of bills aimed at restricting access to abortions, including first-of-its-kind 'heartbeat' proposal
By Reginald Fields, The Plain Dealer

COLUMBUS, Ohio -- In a span of eight days, Ohio Statehouse Republicans will have introduced five separate bills aimed at restricting access to abortions, including a controversial measure banning the procedure as early as six weeks after conception.

The latest proposal -- set to be announced today -- would make Ohio the first state to consider the so-called "heartbeat bill." It would outlaw abortions the moment a fetus' heartbeat is detected -- among the earliest stages a state has tried to ban the procedure.

"We are Ground Zero of what I believe will transform the pro-life movement," said Janet Folger Porter, president of Faith2Action and an architect of the bill which is also expected to be similarly introduced in other states. "It will be the most protective legislation in the country."

With Republicans controlling all three branches of state government, GOP leaders here are pining for a fight on one of the most controversial issues in American politics. Should such a state law reach the U.S. Supreme Court today, it would be argued in front of a conservative-leaning court.

While Roe v. Wade, the Supreme Court's landmark decision that gives a woman the right to choose an abortion and blocks states from banning the procedure, it does not mean Ohio can't pass a law sharply restricting a woman's access to getting one, lawmakers argue.

Legal scholars have already begun taking aim at the heartbeat bill.

The proposed bill would never withstand a legal challenge under the Roe v. Wade decision, critics say, because a fetus' heartbeat might occur before a woman even realizes she is pregnant.

States cannot outlaw abortions before a fetus is considered viable, meaning it can live outside the womb, said Case Western Reserve University School of Law professor Jessie Hill, who called the bill "symbolic legislation ... that's clearly unconstitutional."

"They can regulate, but they can't prohibit them," Hill said. "And that is a proposition that is so widely recognized by courts."

Another GOP bill introduced last week would ban late-term abortions at 20 weeks. A separate measure would exclude abortion coverage under the new federal health care law, and another would apply stricter parental consent rules for teenagers wanting abortions.

Under current law, minors do not need parental consent if they can convince a juvenile court to allow the abortion. While Ohio has a ban on what critics call partial-birth abortions, women can have abortions by other methods through the ninth month of pregnancy.

Republican lawmakers tried as recently as 2006 to ban most abortions in Ohio, introducing a bill that would have made it a felony for doctors to perform the procedure unless a woman's life was in danger. The bill failed after one emotionally-charged committee hearing.

But fresh on the heels of a hugely successful election cycle last November that saw Republicans capture the governor's office, the House, retain the Senate and all but one of the seven state supreme court justice seats, GOP leaders say the time is right to again push an anti-abortion agenda.

"I think any time is the right time to address abortion," said Ohio House Speaker Bill Batchelder, a Republican from Medina. Four of the five abortion bills were introduced in the House.

Abortion-rights advocates view the bills as an attack on women's reproductive rights and fear some of the bills will pass because of the Republican majority in the General Assembly.

"We haven't seen this environment in a very long time," said Kellie Copeland, executive director of NARAL Pro-Choice Ohio. "I would expect to see these bills pass."

State Rep. Lynn Wachtmann, a Northwest Ohio Republican, will formally introduce the heartbeat bill today. The measure already has more than 40 co-sponsors.

"One of my goals as a legislator is to push the pro-life agenda as far as we can," Wachtmann said Tuesday. "The elections of Nov. 2 last year certainly changed the dynamics of public policy."

Already officials from other states, including Texas and Georgia, have asked for copies of Ohio's heartbeat bill so they can introduce their own versions, Folger Porter said.

Still, one key anti-abortion advocate says that while Republicans might have the votes to push the heartbeat proposal through the legislature, he doubts the measure will ever actually be law in Ohio.

"The courts are going to block it," said Michael Gonidakis, executive director of Ohio Right to Life. "It will not save one baby's life."

Hill, the Case law professor and abortion-rights proponent , accused Wachtmann of grandstanding on a proposal he knows will not be upheld in court.

"This is a power play by Republicans," she said. "The sponsor knows that bill isn't going to go anywhere."

But other states have passed some restrictions pertaining to late term abortions and increasing parental consent guidelines for minors seeking an abortion.

And both supporters and critics of bills in Ohio addressing abortion in those two areas agree the state may just end up with legal-proof restrictions that Gov. John Kasich is expected to support.

Also, a Democrat has introduced a bill to restrict abortions. State Rep. Lorraine Fende, of Willowick introduced HB 7 last month which proposes an abortion ban at 22 weeks.

Six abortion bills under consideration
Introduction of the "heartbeat bill" today in the Ohio House of Representatives will be the sixth bill related to abortion introduced so far this year, when Republicans took control of the House.

Here is a summary of each:
•House Bill 7, sponsored by Rep. Lorraine Fende, Democrat of Willowick: To establish a late-term abortion ban when a woman is at least 22 weeks' pregnant and a doctor determines the fetus is viable, which means it can live outside the womb. Fende's bill has been overshadowed by another late-term abortion ban Republicans have sponsored.
•House Bill 78, sponsored by Rep. Kristina Roegner, Republican of Hudson, and Rep. Joe Uecker, Republican of Miami Township: Another late-term abortion ban, but this one would take effect at 20 weeks' of pregnancy when the fetus is viable. Both this proposal and House Bill 7 contain exceptions to the ban when a woman's life is in danger or in cases of other medical emergencies.
•House Bill 63, sponsored by Rep. Ron Young, Republican of Lake County, and Rep. Lynn Slaby, Republican of Copley, and Senate Bill 8, sponsored by Sen. Tim Grendell, Republican of Chester Township, and Sen. Karen Gillmor, Republican of Tiffin: These bills, which contain the same language, would make it more difficult for minors to get a juvenile court judge's permission to get an abortion without parental consent. The bills would require a judge to ask whether the minor understands the potential physical and emotional complications of abortion, and whether the minor has been coached into successfully avoiding parental consent.
•House Bill 79, sponsored by Rep. Danny Bubp, Republican of Southwest Ohio, and Rep. Uecker:
To prohibit abortion coverage in health care plans offered by the state under the new federal health care law, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.
•The "heartbeat bill," sponsored by Rep. Lynn Wachtmann, Republican of Napoleon: To ban abortions when a heartbeat is detected in the fetus, which is typically in the first trimester of a pregnancy. The bill, to be introduced today, will include exceptions for medical emergencies.


If you've read my posts elsewhere here you know that I am for these measures for obvious reasons, although I would like to see more exceptions built in for medical emergencies.

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 Post subject: Ohio Abortion Law
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:19 am 
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So would I. Lynn Sr. (yes that's a man) was a great rep though. I'm glad to see his son carrying the torch.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:53 am 
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Fende is my rep and she just earned herself a lifetime of my votes. While her's lacks teeth I like the direction she is moving.

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 Post subject: Re: Ohio Abortion Law
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:47 am 
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Haven't read the whole article yet, but the Heartbeat line jumped out at me.

I wholly approve of using this as a baseline to determine if the fetus is alive. Once the heartbeat has been detected, how can anyone (I am sure many here will) argue that what is now in that woman's tummy is a human life. Abortion beyond this point should be considered murder.

Sounds like a good start and I hope they pass.

EDIT - I think that "outlawing abortions" is just politically charged jargon used to take away from the fact that abortions are, in essence, already illegal. Deliberately taking another's life is already a crime. Abortion proponents conveniently forget the fact that what is in the tummy of the woman is a life, not an object.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:25 am 
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Heartbeat detection as a method might be a bit hard to regulate... Mostly due to the differing times of detection based on your equipment. The better ultrasound you have, the earlier you can detect the heartbeat.

3-5 weeks is quite early to limit abortions, imo. I'm more a fan of limits on the order of 10-15 weeks. Quite a few women might not even realize they're pregnant at 3-5 weeks.

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 Post subject: Re: Ohio Abortion Law
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:22 pm 
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These laws are kind of useless when someone can just drive three hours over to the next state and get their abortion.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:27 pm 
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Welcome to The United States of America. Did you ever stop to consider that is exactly why many desire to go back to the founding principles of this country i.e. a small, relatively weak Federal Gov't?

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 Post subject: Re: Ohio Abortion Law
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:47 pm 
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I have always wondered how any one could not know if they are pregnant. If you’re having sex (regardless of the type of protection) there’s a chance you may be pregnant. Keep a close eye on your cycle, and if your period is not there after 5 weeks, go pee on a stick.

I know some girls are irregular with their periods, but if you’re having sex, then you should always keep some sticks handy just to be sure…


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 Post subject: Re: Ohio Abortion Law
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:46 pm 
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Lydiaa wrote:
I have always wondered how any one could not know if they are pregnant. If you’re having sex (regardless of the type of protection) there’s a chance you may be pregnant. Keep a close eye on your cycle, and if your period is not there after 5 weeks, go pee on a stick.

I know some girls are irregular with their periods, but if you’re having sex, then you should always keep some sticks handy just to be sure…


Pregnancy tests can be inaccurate for up to the first week after a missed period (5 weeks). Also note that it's not all that uncommon for a woman to have a regular period early in pregnancy. Not missing a period doesn't mean you aren't pregnant, it just lowers the chance.

That said, at 3 or 4 weeks, you might not even *have* a late period yet- so yes, it is well possible to detect a heartbeat before it's reasonable to assume a woman should know she's pregnant.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:16 pm 
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The jury's still out on the statistics of pregnancy if you have a full period after conception. There's a difference between spotting and full blown, and the majority of the girls (unless there are other causes, malnutrition comes to mind) could tell a difference.

I agree the time frame should be set around 9 weeks and 6 weeks tend to be a little short. However that said, any females that are having sex should be keeping an eye out on their own body and should be able to catch pregnancy when it happends, rather than the "oh... really? when did that happen" attitude which most tend to have.

So yup, I agree with your 6 weeks is too short.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:06 pm 
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I've always known I was pregnant even before I missed my period, and even when the pregnancy was completely unplanned and unexpected. If you know your body, the changes are very obvious even early on.

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 Post subject: Re: Ohio Abortion Law
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:12 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
These laws are kind of useless when someone can just drive three hours over to the next state and get their abortion.


They're not useless at all. The point of the law would be to reduce abortions in the State of Ohio, not to prevent them from happenning anywhere. That's the point of having multiple states, and free travel between them. Each state can regulate as it sees fit and people who don't like it can go elsewhere.

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 Post subject: Re: Ohio Abortion Law
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:26 pm 
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NephyrS wrote:
Also note that it's not all that uncommon for a woman to have a regular period early in pregnancy. Not missing a period doesn't mean you aren't pregnant, it just lowers the chance.

That said, at 3 or 4 weeks, you might not even *have* a late period yet- so yes, it is well possible to detect a heartbeat before it's reasonable to assume a woman should know she's pregnant.


Neph, you cannot have a period while pregnant. It is a physical impossibility. Bleeding during early pregnancy, although it does happen sometimes, is not normal and is not a period. It can be anything from an irritable cervix to implantation bleeding to a miscarriage or something similar.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:35 pm 
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Or, it may be menstruation.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:40 pm 
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I see a rise in the statistic for miscarriages in the future if that passes... maybe not a HUGE rise, but as the procedure becomes illegal, people will do whatever they need to do, to prevent parenthood if they do not want to become parents.

Sucks but oh well.

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:41 pm 
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shuyung wrote:


I'd really like to know where they got that information. Most doctors will tell you that it is impossible to have a period while pregnant. As far as a period starting and then stopping due to pregnancy, that's virtually impossible as well from everything that I understand.

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 Post subject: Re: Ohio Abortion Law
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:28 am 
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NephyrS wrote:
That said, at 3 or 4 weeks, you might not even *have* a late period yet- so yes, it is well possible to detect a heartbeat before it's reasonable to assume a woman should know she's pregnant.



I'm sure that was a consideration when these proposals were written. Through regulation they are trying to effectively ban abortions while being able to say they aren't "banning" abortions. At least that is my take on it.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:16 am 
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I don't know this, but I suspect strongly that a baby's heart does not form, then get "turned on". I suspect it's a cluster of cells, then more cells, then more cells until finally there's enough of them that you can finally hear them working.

If I'm correct, that is in no way definitive enough to be used to determine whether a murder occurred.

It has to be a DATE (i.e. number of weeks). That can be set by doctors who say "heartbeat starts around this time", but from a legal standpoint it has to be very clear.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:25 am 
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LadyKate wrote:
shuyung wrote:


I'd really like to know where they got that information. Most doctors will tell you that it is impossible to have a period while pregnant. As far as a period starting and then stopping due to pregnancy, that's virtually impossible as well from everything that I understand.


The OB's I've known has told me that it's not uncommon to continue menstruation during pregnancy- especially the first period in, although some women will have regular periods during the entire pregnancy.

Also, just because you were able to tell you were pregnant doesn't mean that anyone else should be able to. Pregnancy effects people differently. You can't simply take your experiences and extrapolate to everyone else.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:20 am 
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I wonder if we are overreaching here. I don't want the Republicans to go all off the edge social and forget about the other issues.

A 20 or 22 week late term ban sounds like a great idea. I was surprised we didn't have that one.

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 Post subject: Re: Ohio Abortion Law
PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:26 pm 
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Usually 6 weeks is around the time when the first tiny microscopic central line develops in a baby. It gets its own personal baby sized heart sack, but it hasn’t made any blood yet. So it’s essentially pushing fluid around and practicing to be a good little heart.

They make baby versions of the blood around week 8ish, and by week 9 they have a strong enough heart beat to be detected (by current technology).


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:37 pm 
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Lydiaa:

According to Mayo Clinic The heart is developed and pushing blood by 6 weeks.

According to the data in this article (DuBose TJ, Miller MM & Moutos DM; Embryonic Heart Rates Compared in Assisted and Non-Assisted Pregnancies) it appears that the heartbeat can be detected starting at about 5 weeks from the last reported menstrual period, or about 21 days post-conception.

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 Post subject: Re: Ohio Abortion Law
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:13 am 
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At 6 weeks the baby has not developed enough systems to create their own blood. They are pumping fluids which transfuse across the membrane (containing minimal cells) as the placenta isn’t developed enough. So yes they are pumping blood as in the liquid, but not pumping the type of blood we’re use to… if that makes sense >.<

At this stage, their hearts are pumping but not regulated by its own body. It’s more a reactive action, kinda like running a car on a treadmill to make sure the wheels work. It’s not really driving the car on the road…

Anyways, going off on a tangent cause of cute little tiny heart sacks… your post is interesting in that heart rate could be detected at 5 weeks. I’d imagine its using some pretty specialised sonography equipment as it is very faint… probably more visible…


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 Post subject: Re: Ohio Abortion Law
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:25 am 
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Lydiaa wrote:
At 6 weeks the baby has not developed enough systems to create their own blood. They are pumping fluids which transfuse across the membrane (containing minimal cells) as the placenta isn’t developed enough. So yes they are pumping blood as in the liquid, but not pumping the type of blood we’re use to… if that makes sense >.<

At this stage, their hearts are pumping but not regulated by its own body. It’s more a reactive action, kinda like running a car on a treadmill to make sure the wheels work. It’s not really driving the car on the road…

Anyways, going off on a tangent cause of cute little tiny heart sacks… your post is interesting in that heart rate could be detected at 5 weeks. I’d imagine its using some pretty specialised sonography equipment as it is very faint… probably more visible…


3 weeks, actually.

And yes, they aren't actually pumping blood.

But since the original argument was to legislate it on the detection of a heart beat, not the existence of a functional heart and cardiovascular system. And you can detect the heartbeat at 21 days post-conception. And yes, I think it's visible using higher than average power/quality ultrasound devices.

If you by any chance have full text access to medical journals through your work (somehow, possibly) the references in my second link make for some interesting reading, and have more on the instrumentation used to make the measurements, as well as how the age of the fetus was determined (since you rarely have an exact date of conception).

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:01 am 
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