The Glade 4.0

Wow. Not sure how to respond to that. Heroin dealers don't just hurt the people who use their drugs. They harm their families, and they also place a *huge* amount of strain on our public services. Police, medical, and otherwise.

I am sort of astonished that you think a man, working hard for his family, is the moral equivalent of the kind of scum that deal heroin.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

And I am sort of astonished that you don't think that people breaking the laws of the country aren't criminals.

To each their own I suppose.

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Holy shitsnacks!

They have committed a criminal act, it's true. Just like anyone who speeds or smokes pot. What is it that drives the hatred for these people for breaking *this* law that doesn't drive it for pot smokers or people who habitually speed?

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

If this discussion were about pot smokers or (lol) habitual speeders, then you may have an argument.

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Holy shitsnacks!

I don't see hopping the border fence as any more or less dangerous than those acts, to society.

In fact, I don't see anything particularly dangerous at all about people coming to this country to work hard and feed their families. It's the American dream.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

breaking the law is breaking the law. Society assigns different penalties to different transgressions (and rightly so), but it's still breaking the law.

Breaking the law involves punishment. Have I broken the law? Yes. I'm not perfect yet and probably will continue to do so, probably every day of this age. However there is a penalty for that. Get caught speeding? get a ticket. Get caught stealing or using Illegal substances (there's an "illegal" term tied to smoking) get a fine or go to jail.

This has been the premise of society for ~6000 years. These folks are not immune to it. Nor are pot smokers or speeders.

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

Yes. The AMERICAN dream. Which these people aren't. We have an unemployment crisis in this country, and you're advocating that people that are legal citizens of this country should remain unemployed because some fence jumping illegal alien will do the work for half the price? Oh, and not pay income taxes?

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Holy shitsnacks!

And, Society is also known for passing and maintaining horribly unjust laws. Legal slaver, for example. Violating those laws is a noble, moral act. In fact, such violations frequently lead to positive change.

I cannot blame a person for coming to this country, legally or illegally, in order to do what they must to survive and feed their family. They aren't hurting me, you, or anyone else. They aren't taking your jobs or killing your wages (in fact, studies have shown that wages for legal citizens have increased as immigration has increased).

Now, some people come to this country for nefarious purposes. They committ crimes here (outside of the act of taking a step over an arbitrarily decided border), and they clearly need to be deported. But the honest hard working people? We need to bring them into our society, not hedge them out.

At least, that's how I see it.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Tell that to the people whos fence gets jumped and their property destroyed when illegal aliens sneak over the border. I'm sure their views would differ.

So again, can I camp in your living room because I don't like the state of mine? Actually why am I asking, I should just do it.

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A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill

That's a different crime all together, Hannibal.

No, you can't camp in my living room. You can, however, walk down that public road, sidewalk, etc, and I won't bat an eyelash. Even if you crossed the border illegally.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Why? The border of your front door is just a barrier to my happiness and prosperity. I feel property laws are unjust and you've already said breaking unjust laws are ok in your book.

Ok how about if youre a homeowner, a shanty town pops up in your front yard? This crime has actual victims and you are making them faceless in order to make this illegal act justified.

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A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill

You haven't given one shred of evidence that our laws regulating immigration are unjust.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Neither were nearly every one of our ancestors. Each and every one of them came here from some place else, their dreams on their backs, hoping for a better future. The people coming up from Mexico are no different. And if you think every immigrant who came to this country back in the day did so above the board, you're mistaken.



Wages are shown to go up in areas with the highest amounts of undocumented workers. Though I agree with you that the wage competition is unfair. Which is why I support guest worker programs and other reforms that decriminalize their method of immigration and bring them out into the light.

The unemployement crisis affects them, as well. Its not as if our unemployment woes would suddenly vanish if every undocumented worker were to suddenly vanish. In fact, it would probably get a lot worse. A lot of industries rely heavily on their labor.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

The great majority of them DID come above-board simply because they had to croiss the ocean, not a desolate boarder they could sneak across, and yes, they are different. They're sneaking in illegally.



They're shown to because those studies only count people who are actually working, not people who would do those jobs if illegals didn't. And whwere are they shown to go up, by the way?



If those industries didn't have that labor, they could hire citizens, and who gives a **** if they're affected?

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Tell me, DE, how hard was it to get into the country a long time ago compared to today?

Also, show your work, please. Where do you get the information that these studies are somehow flawed in their methodology?

Those industries would probably fail, which would affect the broader economy. Nothing happens in a vacuum.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

What do you mean by hard and who cares? That was then and this is now; there's no reason it needs to be equally difficult.



What studies? You cited no studies and I'll show no work.



False.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

I have no problems with Illegal Immigrants as long as they are aware of their own status. It's when they start screaming for rights and protection when I start getting a headache.

I think an expensive ticket plus a months long journey with a good chance of dying and being sick or starving or sunk is not as easy as running through a culvert at night.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

No, it implies using the correct term to describe citizens of another country who arrived in this country without proper documentation and approval.

It's only bleeding heart liberals who infer judgment.

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"If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me." - Alice R. Longworth

"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun." - Ash Williams

They are stealing resources and funding that could be used to um, educate our own kids, provide funding for Social Security, or perhaps even universal health care; for citizens of the US. This theft is continuous as long as they are here.

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"If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me." - Alice R. Longworth

"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun." - Ash Williams