The Glade 4.0

There, fixed it for you.

If you try to get the County to fix the huge pothole in front of your driveway, and they don't, then you hire someone to fix it, they sue, you'd be outraged. They have no reason to be outraged if you countersued.

I actually see cause for both suits to win. Feds say, "hey, that's our job" and win. AZ says, "do your **** job then" and win.

Bad analogy. A better one would be if I had a pothole in the road by my house. And I would completely expect to have the County try and stop me from fixing it.

Basically, Arizona went about trying to fix this issue the wrong way. And anyone from their legislative branch should have known that this circus of events was coming. Now, that may very well be their intent from the beginning to raise the issue to the national stage, which is fine. But either way their "outrage" rings hollow to me. It's all a bunch of dick waving and posturing, on all sides.

By passing a law allowing them to detain illegal aliens until ICE could handle the issue? Really? That's the wrong way?

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That's what I said. And you'd be right to be outraged if they tried to stop you. And, you'd be well within your rights to countersue.

Ah, sorry I miss read. No actually I wouldn't be outraged if they tried to stop me. I'd be upset (possibly) that they hadn't fixed the pothole outfront of my house, but much of that would depend on my expectations based on tax rate and location, etc. Personally, I like to have my infrastructure in good shape and I'm happy to put my money where my mouth is, so I live in an area that has very good local and state services, and a tax rate to match.

So, AZ should be upset, but not outraged?

You're missing my point. I don't think they really have much right to be outraged at being stopped by the Fed. They maybe have a right to be upset or even outraged by the lack of border security. However, I'm of the opinion that the border issue has been greatly overblown, so YMMV.

What? It is.

Haha, you obviously live nowhere near the southwest. I'm even in northern Utah, something like 700 miles from the border and there are TONS of illegals here. There are entire sections of town that are basically where illegals live and no one else.

I haven't been to Arizona in awhile, but from friends that live there a significant portion of the population are illegal aliens. Not talking 5% or something small, more like 20%+. My cousin who lives in southern California says the area he lives in is approaching 50% illegal alien population.

The issue is way underblown if anything. It's really a huge black mark on the US government, and apparently it's being swept under the rug almost completely for reasons I can't even imagine. By that I mean I can imagine them, I just don't want to believe they're actually true.

I'm always curious how folks can tell that 50% of the people around them are illegal aliens.

You can generally tell when there are about 100 people living in a 3 bedroom house and 4-6 broken down cars in the front yard. Or that they don't speak a word of English, nor ever make any attempt to learn. And there's the mexican flags flying all over the place. And every female over 15 is pregnant.

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Los Angeles Kings 2014 Stanley Cup Champions

"I love this **** team right here."
-Jonathan Quick

They violated zoning laws. Put a lien on their property. Problem solved.

That's because you're a **** liberal wanker who actually thinks that it's not a big deal that poor, honest, hardworking Mexican people come here and try to get jobs and really, who can blame them if they swim the river because we have "unfair"immigration laws that don't let anyone who wants to come here and make a better life for themselves because their skin is brown or something.

If you think that, YMMV, because you're getting your mileage on a ten-speed while everyone else is driving a car. You just do not get it. Plenty of these people are violent criminals, sex workers, victims of traffiking, drug traffikers, etc, and the bottom line for the est is that they make some jobs untenable for citizens because they drive down the wages. Probably 1 person in 7 physically in the U.S. is here illegally. You think that all those jobs would simply go unfilled if they weren't?

Illegal immigration is a symptom of Mexico's unhealthiness and corruption and by tolerating it we are essentially enabling an "alcoholic" society to continue its behavior. Get your head out of your ***.

As for how people can tell who is illegal, its remarkably easy. Illegals don't come here looking like everyone else. They come here dressed for the trip.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

I am begining to believe that this lawsuit was part of the original plan. Arizona puts up the law, which if it sticks, great, but has a section in it that's ripe for a challenge. Now they've got the Feds to say "no that's our job", to which this suit is the response.

I'm inclined to say that arizona has them boxed in.

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A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill

My brother in law is a police officer here, and he can point out illegals with a very high accuracy rate just by paying attention to how they act for a minute or two. Most people who pay attention begin to be able to do the same pretty quickly, though perhaps not as well. The things that Raltar pointed out may seem like a joke, but they're often quite true. A house not half a block away from mine was raided recently and had 30 people living in 2k square feet. Basically the more often you see them the more you begin to notice the nuances of their behavior, and it gets easier and easier to point them out.

I heard a wise Hispanic woman speak tonight. She was burdened for her son who is going to Nogales, AZ to work on the boarder patrol.

"It's not about the poor people trying to make a living it's about the drugs"

I'd like to have some reform where we can allow hard working individuals to come in on a guest worker program, but to do that we have to first be able to keep out the violent and illegal elements. Blanket immunity (or it's de facto equivalent) won't do that.

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

We already do have all kinds of guest worker programs. You can get an E-series immigrant employment visa, and there are also H-1B, H-1C, H-2A, and H-2B temporary worker visas. There is no limit ont he number of nonimmigrant worker visas. H-2A is for temporary agricultural workers and H-2B is for nonagricultural workers. Since the vast majority of illegals come here to work in agriculture or unskilled labor that covers them quite nicely.

The bottom line is that we, as a soveriegn nation, have the right to determine who comes into our country and who does not. We are not obligted to any other country to let their surplus population come here and become our surplus population. That is a basic element of national soveriegnty.

Moreover, disregarding the drugs and criminals, the basic problem is that Mexico cannot manage itself. By acting as a relief valve for its excess population we allow Mexico to continue existing in the state that allows such conditions in the first place. It's no different than enabling an alcoholic.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

This thread quickly went back to the usual argument of illegals are good people vs illegals are bad for the country.

It started out, though, as a rule of law issue. That's much more relevant. If you want the US to let in whoever wants in, fine -- write your representatives or make that a key voting issue in the future.

You really should not say "eh, that law? Just ignore that law." Picking and choosing may work alright in the short term, if the country as a whole really doesn't want to enforce immigration laws, but it's a pretty slippery slope to get in the habit of just ignoring laws you don't personally like. It goes against a big part of the system of legislation and probably even some of the ideas behind having a system of justice. Keyword being 'system'.

Fixes this Arizona issue just fine. Same thing for the Hazleton issue which has sorta been swept under Arizona's rug these past few years. Rightfully so I guess. :p As bad as it has become here, it's... not quite like the border area.

A Border Patrol agent was shot and killed by illegal immigrants. A sheriff was shot by drug smugglers. Ranchers in Arizona continually have their property stolen or vandalized. How exactly is it overblown?

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The Dude abides.

You know DE, before your bullshit post, this was actually a fairly civil discussion.

That kind of crap is what's wrong with hellfire. Kindly stop posting that ****.

Noggel: bad justice is putting people behind bars who shouldn't be there. Neglecting to enforce the law is not bad justice.

Hiring people legally with temporary worker visas would require the companies to pay at least minimum wage, which would defeat the entire purpose of hiring foreign workers.

Also, the H-1 series of visas does have a limit. The H-2 series does not, but the regulations associated with it means there is no way in hell any company could afford to hire foreign workers for anything but specialty work under it. The prevailing wage rate rules typically force the employer to pay even more than minimum wage to hire under H-2A, and the workers must be provided with free lodging at the employer's expense.

We have 10,000,000 illegal immigrants at minimum and 30,000 H-2As. It's simply not a viable alternative as the jobs are worth nowhere near the amount the employer would have to spend. I would refer you to the destruction of the California orange crop in 2007, an illegal immigrant crackdown left the orange growers without workers in advance of an impending frost, and pretty much all of them decided it would be better to let the crop freeze to death on the vines than to pay Americans to harvest it.