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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:03 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
One thing I'd like to get straight, I'm not ideologically opposed to long hours or physical labor. If I somehow magically developed the skillset to do Hannibal's job, for example (construction?) I'd do that if I had to even if it involved long hours for hard labor. What offends me is the notion that people in the first world should be forced to do hard physical labor for 80-100 hours a week and only receive basic subsistence wages (or not even that) from it. That means you barely get enough food and shelter, and nothing else. You know, conditions reminiscent of The Grapes of Wrath. One is left with no upward mobility and is stuck doing that one job for basic survival for the rest of their life. Injure yourself and we invite you to go die in the nearest corner because you're not worth helping. Yes, someone has to shovel the **** out of the barn. These people should still receive a livable wage for doing so, even if that means subsidizing them..


Those jobs go to the lowest bidder. If I will muck a stall for $10 bucks an hour, and the next guy will do it for $6 bucks an hour, who is the Government to step in and say that the rate has to be at least $8 an hour? We already know what happens- when the associated costs for a job become too much to hire someone on the books, you get workers hired off the books. Now since we are already off the books, why even pay them a decent wage? The only person that wins is the unscrupulous boss who is taking a minimal risk to gain a maximum advantage. What happens? He eats a fine and the worker gets run off to be replaced next week by the next one.

So instead, we subsidize them? And we do that by taking money from others in the form of taxiation, and funnel it to these ventures?

Part of what I do is climb radio towers. It's not exactly the safest work out there, so I make a good wage. So in essence, you would like me to work longer hours in a risky enviorment just to make the same wage to feed my family, so you can take it and give my "excess" to another person who isn't risking their ***?

No wonder people are becoming more and more agitated with government.

Xequecal wrote:
I guess that's why I'm called a liberal, but very, very few things offend me more than people who believe that, in a country where GDP per capita is >$70,000, we should first stoop to having tens of millions of our own citizens barely surviving at backbreaking physical labor jobs that will destroy their bodies before the age of 40, as well as many unemployed persons (because you won't reach 100% employment, no matter what your government is like) having to literally beg for their continued survival, before taking a single dollar away from the ultra rich millionaires and billionaires that have everything. That kind of political construct is what you start shooting politicians over..


With the latest "budget" proposal, we are spending roughly our GDP. We as a nation, have to borrow money just to run what we are doing today. And other self proclaimed liberals are calling for more spending....

See, I have a big problem with your above paragraph. I have to work longer hours, in all sorts of conditions, just to cover the new taxes that will be slapped on me. In order to keep saving, and providing at the level I am at now, I have to do MORE work. That is the result of these policies. The money has to come from somewhere, and since I am one that is currently productive, I am also the default ATM for these schemes. The owner of my company worked his *** off, just like I am doing, and built this company. He earned what he has, and while I envy him, I would never take by force what he has earned. I would ask that I be given the same respect. I'm not tho- because as is consistantly demonstrated, once people are considered "rich" they instantly are transformed into no nothing greedy sob's who never worked a day in their lives and had everything handed to them while they F'd the little guy. Disgusting.

Xequecal wrote:
EDIT - Before anyone says it, yes I realize that minimum wage especially at such hours is far more than subsistence. I'm referring to the people who think we should get rid of minimum wage and welfare and "force" people to do these jobs for their true market value, which is to say almost nothing.


There is no force unless we resort to slave labor. If a guy will muck a stall for 10/an hour and the next guy will do it for 6, then the job is either worth 6/an hour to the guy needing the work done, or he had better put on his boots and do it himself.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:26 pm 
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Hannibal wrote:
Part of what I do is climb radio towers. It's not exactly the safest work out there, so I make a good wage. So in essence, you would like me to work longer hours in a risky enviorment just to make the same wage to feed my family, so you can take it and give my "excess" to another person who isn't risking their ***?


You think the unskilled worker class isn't risking their asses? They're inches away from a crippling injury every day. Your employer probably values you and takes steps to ensure your safety. You can bet your *** the employer of unskilled workers doesn't value them. Anyone maimed or killed is instantly and easily replaceable. And unlike you, who will receive worker's compensation and have an income for life if you were to receive a crippling injury, they don't get that benefit. In fact even a moderate injury is likely to result in their death in the system you advocate, as they will be unable to feed themselves, let alone pay for proper medical care that will allow them to return to work at 100% capacity.

I am perfectly fine with having a few extra dollars taken out of my paycheck so that millions of Americans have food security and aren't at risk of freezing to death every night because they don't even have a real shelter.

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There is no force unless we resort to slave labor. If a guy will muck a stall for 10/an hour and the next guy will do it for 6, then the job is either worth 6/an hour to the guy needing the work done, or he had better put on his boots and do it himself.


I realize this is technically true, that's why I put force in quotes. But if your options are take a hard labor unskilled labor position for a few cents an hour or starve, you don't really have a choice. This is the unskilled labor pool. The surplus is immense. Employers aren't competing with each other to hire employees, the potential employees are competing to see who can keep themselves alive and in good enough shape to meet the employer's demands on as little money as possible. The rest get to starve.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:15 am 
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Oh the Fed didn't giveout 700 billion in bailouts.

It was 12.3 Trillion new documents the Fed was forced to release show.

Yup our GDP. POOF.


http://pubrecord.org/nation/8622/pentag ... ll-street/

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:54 am 
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Xequecal wrote:
You think the unskilled worker class isn't risking their asses? They're inches away from a crippling injury every day. Your employer probably values you and takes steps to ensure your safety. You can bet your *** the employer of unskilled workers doesn't value them. Anyone maimed or killed is instantly and easily replaceable. And unlike you, who will receive worker's compensation and have an income for life if you were to receive a crippling injury, they don't get that benefit. In fact even a moderate injury is likely to result in their death in the system you advocate, as they will be unable to feed themselves, let alone pay for proper medical care that will allow them to return to work at 100% capacity..


And there are folks who risk more then I do daily. You are now talking about something completely different. As to compensation, have you even looked at the rates? Even when I was a union lineman, accidental death and dismemberment was a joke. We used to joke that our families would be better off if one of those accidents was a fatality, since at least the life insurance would cover us being gone rather then trying to take care of us in that case. But anyway...

"These people should still receive a livable wage for doing so, even if that means subsidizing them.."

I'm talking about subsidizing an industry, you've moved on to another topic.



Xequecal wrote:
I realize this is technically true, that's why I put force in quotes. But if your options are take a hard labor unskilled labor position for a few cents an hour or starve, you don't really have a choice. This is the unskilled labor pool. The surplus is immense. Employers aren't competing with each other to hire employees, the potential employees are competing to see who can keep themselves alive and in good enough shape to meet the employer's demands on as little money as possible. The rest get to starve.


Yes it sucks that in that position the person wouldn't have a choice. That is the downfall of being unskilled labor. Guess what, we don't all get to be Quarterbacks and Rockstars. No offense, but I can make over a few cents an hour sifting scrap metal out of a landfill and turning it in to a recycler. There is always money to be made for those who are willing to look, and able to adapt. Hell why do you think that people jump the fence to come to the US?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:13 am 
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Hannibal wrote:
No offense, but I can make over a few cents an hour sifting scrap metal out of a landfill and turning it in to a recycler. There is always money to be made for those who are willing to look, and able to adapt. Hell why do you think that people jump the fence to come to the US?


This makes me LOL. The last place I worked... we would constantly end up with no phone service for a day or two at a time because we were somewhat out in the middle of nowhere... and people would come to the closest phone junction box to our office and rip out the copper pipes to get the metal to recycle.... one day the Embarq crews got out to the site to find a melted boot and a burnt Axe handle.

Apparently the dude decided to use his truck to pull loose the copper pipe again and use the Axe to break through the last bits... but instead of the copper phone line, he pulled the power main that went to our building.

I am surprised he was not found dead on scene... unless he was working with someone and they just grabbed him and got the crap out of there.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:35 am 
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I've never understood the romanticism that surrounds the concept of physical labor in this country. That somehow using your body instead of your brain is somehow more "honest" or "real" work. Perhaps it's that using your brain often provides intangible products, which some people have a hard time understanding the value of, I'm not sure. But in any case, it's a tired, old and wrong paradigm.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:53 am 
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Aizle wrote:
I've never understood the romanticism that surrounds the concept of physical labor in this country. That somehow using your body instead of your brain is somehow more "honest" or "real" work. Perhaps it's that using your brain often provides intangible products, which some people have a hard time understanding the value of, I'm not sure. But in any case, it's a tired, old and wrong paradigm.

Are you not familiar with communism?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:07 pm 
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Screeling wrote:
Aizle wrote:
I've never understood the romanticism that surrounds the concept of physical labor in this country. That somehow using your body instead of your brain is somehow more "honest" or "real" work. Perhaps it's that using your brain often provides intangible products, which some people have a hard time understanding the value of, I'm not sure. But in any case, it's a tired, old and wrong paradigm.

Are you not familiar with communism?


Sure, I'm familiar with it. Your point?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:25 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
It cracks me up that you hear this argument all the time from white collar workers, and never from actual workers.
I earned my white collar job. I paid for college sweating in tobacco fields and working off-term programs doing grunt work in factories. Go **** yourself. Never had less than 3 jobs during my first bachelor's degree. Waited tables and tended bar during school. But, Americans think they're too good for much of this.


And Xeq has a job. He's not lazy because he chooses to work his current job instead of 90 hours a week pulling weeds. No more than you. He "earned" his job too. You're just as "entitled" as he.

And for the record, I grew up on a farm, worked construction, and ran a small painting business. When I got tired of working my *** off all the time, I got no less than 3 gravy-train jobs at any time waiting tables, tending bar, and tutoring math to put myself through college. Waiting tables isn't manual labor.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:27 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Lenas wrote:
Khross would you honestly take a minimum wage, labor-intensive job over an easier, better-paying alternative that you were qualified for? Let's pretend for a second that you don't already threaten to remove yourself from the United States once in a while.

I can't speak for Xeq, but I also earned my job and worked more than one to put myself through school like you did. Shame that I think my time and work is worth something now. Maybe I should ship my own commie *** over to China so I can have a real appreciation for HARD WORK.
Lenas, seeing as how we're in a Depression. If I had to work in fields to make ends meet, I'd work in fields. All there is to it. Anyone who thinks they're entitled to the job they have (or something comparable) because of whatever effort they put into school and such, can go **** themselves. But, you know, I'm kind of a dinosaur like that. You take the work you can get when you have to take the work you can get. Your time isn't worth anymore than anyone else's time. You're not entitled to a better than subsistence living because you went to school or anything else. You're entitled to try and survive. That's how it is. Social safety nets, welfare assistance, all of it is a poison on this nation and everywhere else ...

Because here's something everyone keeps forgetting ...

Someone has to plow the fields. Someone has to shovel the **** out of the barn. And someone has to sweat bringing in the crops. It doesn't matter how many college degrees you have. It doesn't matter what experience you have. That work still needs to be done. The widgets still need to be made. And until such a time as we can replicate matter at will without any concerns for the insane amount of energy that takes, it's always going to be that way. Physical labor isn't beneath. Carpentry and cabinet making, plumbing and electrician work, and even good, old fashioned, back breaking farm labor aren't beneath me or you or anyone else.

The sooner people figure that out, the sooner this country will start heading in the right direction again.


Difficult to argue with. However, my point still stands. I ONLY ever hear this **** from white collar folks.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:33 pm 
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I can't help but feel this article is related:
http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/16/news/ec ... n&hpt=Sbin
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How the middle class became the underclass
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The average American's income has not changed much, while the richest 5% of Americans have seen their earnings surge. This chart includes capital gains.
By Annalyn Censky, staff

NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- Are you better off than your parents?

Probably not if you're in the middle class.

Incomes for 90% of Americans have been stuck in neutral, and it's not just because of the Great Recession. Middle-class incomes have been stagnant for at least a generation, while the wealthiest tier has surged ahead at lighting speed.

In 1988, the income of an average American taxpayer was $33,400, adjusted for inflation. Fast forward 20 years, and not much had changed: The average income was still just $33,000 in 2008, according to IRS data.

Meanwhile, the richest 1% of Americans -- those making $380,000 or more -- have seen their incomes grow 33% over the last 20 years, leaving average Americans in the dust.

Experts point to some of the usual suspects -- like technology and globalization -- to explain the widening gap between the haves and have-nots.

But there's more to the story.

A real drag on the middle class
One major pull on the working man was the decline of unions and other labor protections, said Bill Rodgers, a former chief economist for the Labor Department, now a professor at Rutgers University.

Because of deals struck through collective bargaining, union workers have traditionally earned 15% to 20% more than their non-union counterparts, Rodgers said.

But union membership has declined rapidly over the past 30 years. In 1983, union workers made up about 20% of the workforce. In 2010, they represented less than 12%.

"The erosion of collective bargaining is a key factor to explain why low-wage workers and middle income workers have seen their wages not stay up with inflation," Rodgers said.

Without collective bargaining pushing up wages, especially for blue-collar work -- average incomes have stagnated.

International competition is another factor. While globalization has lifted millions out of poverty in developing nations, it hasn't exactly been a win for middle class workers in the U.S.

Factory workers have seen many of their jobs shipped to other countries where labor is cheaper, putting more downward pressure on American wages.

"As we became more connected to China, that poses the question of whether our wages are being set in Beijing," Rodgers said.

Finding it harder to compete with cheaper manufacturing costs abroad, the U.S. has emerged as primarily a services-producing economy. That trend has created a cultural shift in the job skills American employers are looking for.

Whereas 50 years earlier, there were plenty of blue collar opportunities for workers who had only high school diploma, now employers seek "soft skills" that are typically honed in college, Rodgers said.

A boon for the rich
While average folks were losing ground in the economy, the wealthiest were capitalizing on some of those same factors, and driving an even bigger wedge between themselves and the rest of America.

For example, though globalization has been a drag on labor, it's been a major win for corporations who've used new global channels to reduce costs and boost profits. In addition, new markets around the world have created even greater demand for their products.

"With a global economy, people who have extraordinary skills... whether they be in financial services, technology, entertainment or media, have a bigger place to play and be rewarded from," said Alan Johnson, a Wall Street compensation consultant.

As a result, the disparity between the wages for college educated workers versus high school grads has widened significantly since the 1980s.

In 1980, workers with a high school diploma earned about 71% of what college-educated workers made. In 2010, that number fell to 55%.

Another driver of the rich: The stock market.

The S&P 500 has gained more than 1,300% since 1970. While that's helped the American economy grow, the benefits have been disproportionately reaped by the wealthy.

And public policy of the past few decades has only encouraged the trend.

The 1980s was a period of anti-regulation, presided over by President Reagan, who loosened rules governing banks and thrifts.

A major game changer came during the Clinton era, when barriers between commercial and investment banks, enacted during the post-Depression era, were removed.

In 2000, President Bush also weakened the government's oversight of complex securities, allowing financial innovations to take off, creating unprecedented amounts of wealth both for the overall economy, and for those directly involved in the financial sector.

Tax cuts enacted during the Bush administration and extended under Obama were also a major windfall for the nation's richest.

And as then-Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan brought interest rates down to new lows during the decade, the housing market experienced explosive growth.

"We were all drinking the Kool-aid, Greenspan was tending bar, Bernanke and the academic establishment were supplying the liquor," Deutsche Bank managing director Ajay Kapur wrote in a research report in 2009.

But the story didn't end well. Eventually, it all came crashing down, resulting in the worst economic slump since the Great Depression.

With the unemployment rate still excessively high and the real estate market showing few signs of rebounding, the American middle class is still reeling from the effects of the Great Recession.

Meanwhile, as corporate profits come roaring back and the stock market charges ahead, the wealthiest people continue to eclipse their middle-class counterparts.

"I think it's a terrible dilemma, because what we're obviously heading toward is some kind of class warfare," Johnson said.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:54 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Vindicarre wrote:
What I do care about is the influence they have on the well-being of my country.
It's not an individual thing, it's a collective thing, and I can see where the vitriol comes from when people can only assign it to a very large group of "them".


Can you expand on that? I'm not sure I understand what you mean about their influence and what you're defining as "them".


Sure.
What I care about, rather than having animosity toward any illegal alien in particular, or as a group, is whether the phenomenon as a whole has a positive or negative influence on my country.

What is being defined define as "them" is a large, amorphous collection of individuals that are grouped together based on a defining characteristic that they all share (residence status, in this case), rather than by their individual characteristics. This is done by human because it is exceedingly difficult to conceptualize millions of individuals based on their own, individual, disparate traits, while, in comparison, it is much easier to group individuals together based on a few (or singular) common traits.
The use of "the Other" helps individuals form their own identity as separate and distinct from the rest of the world. At this point, Hegelian philosophy is redirected by Lacan to distinguish between "the other" (who is similar to the self) and "the Other" who is different than the self. Social Psychologists/Pop Sociologists take this further to show that the "Otherization" of groups is used as a tool to demonize and dehumanize "the Other". I use the Hegelian "Other" as my basis for "them".

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:05 pm 
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Thanks Vindi.

I completely agree with you. I'm concerned with how this phenomenon happens as well, even beyond the issue of immigration.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:52 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Screeling wrote:
Aizle wrote:
I've never understood the romanticism that surrounds the concept of physical labor in this country. That somehow using your body instead of your brain is somehow more "honest" or "real" work. Perhaps it's that using your brain often provides intangible products, which some people have a hard time understanding the value of, I'm not sure. But in any case, it's a tired, old and wrong paradigm.

Are you not familiar with communism?


Sure, I'm familiar with it. Your point?

The point is that if you're familiar with communism, you should know that's how you get average citizens on board. Espouse the purity of manual labor and criticize the lazy rich.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:48 am 
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Work is work. Some jobs are more prefered than others, but it all has value. I may not want to be a garbage man, but I'm glad there is someone there to do it. It's a valuable service.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:10 am 
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Garbagemen, especially the union ones, actually make a lot of money. I've seen salaries in the $60,000 to $70,000 range.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:15 am 
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Aizle wrote:
I've never understood the romanticism that surrounds the concept of physical labor in this country. That somehow using your body instead of your brain is somehow more "honest" or "real" work. Perhaps it's that using your brain often provides intangible products, which some people have a hard time understanding the value of, I'm not sure. But in any case, it's a tired, old and wrong paradigm.
I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry at this post. Are you really that ignorant, Aizle? Are you that much a self-centered elitist that you honestly don't and can't understand why physical labor isn't looked down upon in the United States?

The only "tired, old, and wrong paradigm" in this thread is your continued insistence that you actually know better than anyone else about anything. No matter how liberal you might be, someone still had to raise the cow that made your shoes. Someone had to harvest, bale, and clean the cotton currently keeping your nutsack from chafing against your khaki slacks. Someone had tap and drain the rubber tree that makes up the soles of your shoes. No one's romanticizing physical work. We just called it honest labor. Maybe you reflect on that for a while ...

Maybe you should consider that the American dream has always been, even if its not possible anymore, that anyone willing to do an honest day's labor every day can support a family, secure a little piece of earth to call their own, and some day retire secure in the ownership that which they earned. But, no, you keep on calling the values that made this country great "wrong" ...

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:06 am 
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Aizle wrote:
I've never understood the romanticism that surrounds the concept of physical labor in this country. That somehow using your body instead of your brain is somehow more "honest" or "real" work. Perhaps it's that using your brain often provides intangible products, which some people have a hard time understanding the value of, I'm not sure. But in any case, it's a tired, old and wrong paradigm.


I disagree.

Anyone can go to Ikea and buy a stool, go home and put it together. Fewer people can make that stool from a pile of finished lumber. Even fewer can go further back in the process and make that stool from a log they've taken off a tree. Doesn't seem like a big deal until you don't have an Ikea doing all the fabrication for you.

Using skilled craftsmen, or at least experienced labor, I can build everything I need to live. I can't do that with a group of accountants, any more than the craftsman can do my taxes. So maybe it is tangible results vs intangible. At one point men had to know a lot more labor things than now. We are becoming too specialized. We are forgetting the fundamentals of work, critical thinking, and self reliance.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:12 am 
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Screeling wrote:
The point is that if you're familiar with communism, you should know that's how you get average citizens on board. Espouse the purity of manual labor and criticize the lazy rich.


Sure. However, if you read my post you'll see I said "this country". The US has never been a communist country, and more specifically been very anti-communist. So while I'd understand why this paradigm would be out there in China or Russia, it's always surprised me here.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:23 am 
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Khross wrote:
Aizle wrote:
I've never understood the romanticism that surrounds the concept of physical labor in this country. That somehow using your body instead of your brain is somehow more "honest" or "real" work. Perhaps it's that using your brain often provides intangible products, which some people have a hard time understanding the value of, I'm not sure. But in any case, it's a tired, old and wrong paradigm.
I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry at this post. Are you really that ignorant, Aizle? Are you that much a self-centered elitist that you honestly don't and can't understand why physical labor isn't looked down upon in the United States?


You really need to work on your reading comprehension. I didn't say anything about physical labor being looked down upon. What I said was why physical labor was romanticised and considered to be somehow more "honest" or "real" than other types of work. From my perspective, both are equally as "honest" or "real".

Khross wrote:
The only "tired, old, and wrong paradigm" in this thread is your continued insistence that you actually know better than anyone else about anything. No matter how liberal you might be, someone still had to raise the cow that made your shoes. Someone had to harvest, bale, and clean the cotton currently keeping your nutsack from chafing against your khaki slacks. Someone had tap and drain the rubber tree that makes up the soles of your shoes. No one's romanticizing physical work. We just called it honest labor. Maybe you reflect on that for a while ...


You're not saying anything new here. Similarly, someone had to design the house you live in, the streets you drive on, managers have to coordinate the large work teams that built the roads around you. Their work is just as "honest" and "real" as anyone elses.

Khross wrote:
Maybe you should consider that the American dream has always been, even if its not possible anymore, that anyone willing to do an honest day's labor every day can support a family, secure a little piece of earth to call their own, and some day retire secure in the ownership that which they earned. But, no, you keep on calling the values that made this country great "wrong" ...


Again, you really need to work on your reading comprehension. I've already explained why your comments here aren't what I'm stating at all. You're just trying to pick a fight it seems.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:47 am 
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Aizle wrote:
Similarly, someone had to design the house you live in, the streets you drive on, managers have to coordinate the large work teams that built the roads around you. Their work is just as "honest" and "real" as anyone elses.
I'm just going to remind you that I live in a part of the country where neighbors still get together to build each other's houses without the input or consultation of architects on a fairly regular basis. And, as for road and traffic engineers ... they're a miserable lot who would be better culled from the gene pool. Also, around here, we expect the manager of the road crew to shovel his fair share of asphalt and concrete in these parts, too.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:50 am 
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Aizle wrote:
You're not saying anything new here. Similarly, someone had to design the house you live in, the streets you drive on, managers have to coordinate the large work teams that built the roads around you. Their work is just as "honest" and "real" as anyone elses.

And yet, as Hannibal just got done pointing out, the work white collar jobs produce is ultimately luxury. Nobody had to design my house. Houses were built for centuries upon centuries before some guy with a drafting table got to unroll his sleeves and not sweat the day's work.

Likewise, roads will build themselves if you get enough wagons following a couple cattle trails. We don't even need the work teams, in that case.

Is the quality of the product as shepherded by these white collar managers and planners better? Yes. But the improvement in quality is a quality of life issue, not a life issue. Much of the physical labor that's romanticized and lauded by our society are so because the products they create are truly essential.

Ask the Amish how many white collar jobs they have. Now, name me a society where blue collar jobs aren't necessary for the society to function.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:51 am 
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Aizle wrote:
The US has never been a communist country, and more specifically been very anti-communist.

So to answer Screeling's original question, you are in fact not familiar with communism.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:59 am 
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shuyung wrote:
Aizle wrote:
The US has never been a communist country, and more specifically been very anti-communist.

So to answer Screeling's original question, you are in fact not familiar with communism.


Wait, are you suggesting we were, at one time, a communist country????


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:00 am 
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Hannibal wrote:
Aizle wrote:
I've never understood the romanticism that surrounds the concept of physical labor in this country. That somehow using your body instead of your brain is somehow more "honest" or "real" work. Perhaps it's that using your brain often provides intangible products, which some people have a hard time understanding the value of, I'm not sure. But in any case, it's a tired, old and wrong paradigm.


I disagree.

Anyone can go to Ikea and buy a stool, go home and put it together. Fewer people can make that stool from a pile of finished lumber. Even fewer can go further back in the process and make that stool from a log they've taken off a tree. Doesn't seem like a big deal until you don't have an Ikea doing all the fabrication for you.

Using skilled craftsmen, or at least experienced labor, I can build everything I need to live. I can't do that with a group of accountants, any more than the craftsman can do my taxes. So maybe it is tangible results vs intangible. At one point men had to know a lot more labor things than now. We are becoming too specialized. We are forgetting the fundamentals of work, critical thinking, and self reliance.


I can understand this perspective, and certainly there are those folks out there don't have an understanding on how things are made, etc. But I guess I don't see that we're really all the different than years ago. There were folks who couldn't build furniture from scratch around years ago, just as there are today. The main difference is that today, there are plenty of other skills that they can leverage, that have real value, to be able to make a good living. Certainly if somehow we get nuked back into the stone age, those folks are going to have a rough time. I can see that there are folks out there

But even beyond this, there are plenty of folks that understand these aspects of fabrication that work white collar jobs, yet still can, if needed, make furniture from scratch or other manual labor. Speaking for myself, I drive a desk for my job, largely because it pays better. Yet, I have built furniture, felled trees, erected retaining walls, welded, repaired my car, motorcycle and house, etc.

However, often times I'll still hire a professional for many of those tasks these days. Sometimes it's because of convenience, but often times it's because it's the more efficient and effective way to get the issue fixed. It's not that I can't fix the wiring in my house, or build my own deck. I've done both in the past. But I may not have all the tools necessary to do the most efficient job or quite frankly I'm rusty, and would need to spend some time dusting those skills off to do a job that's probably not quite as good as a professional.

Now on some projects, I specifically do them myself because either it's cheaper or more likely I enjoy the work. I do most of my own repair and maintenance work on my motorcycles, because I enjoy wrenching on them. I got a lot of satisfaction from doing my own throttlebody sync or installing the center stand on my wife's bike. Or helping my buddy get his old CB750 running, etc. But those are things I do because I want to, not because I have to.


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