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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:31 pm 
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NephyrS wrote:
That said, liquid hydrogen will get you down to around 20k, which should be enough for even the current magnets, I would think. Not positive, though. You might lose some resolution with the rise, but it's not like the technology will no longer work, it will just have to be tweaked.
The problem has very little to do with the fidelity of the image. You may have a mistaken impression of how an MRI works.

In absolute simplest terms, an MRI is a solenoid. The way it works is through the relationship between electricity and magnetism. A moving electrical charge (current) creates a magnetic field perpendicular to the direction of its motion. Since the center of a circle is perpendicular to the tangent of the circumference at all points, when current flows in a circle, all contributions at the center are traveling in the same direction. This creates a field of uniform size traveling straight down the middle. With some fancy calculus, we can show this to be the case anywhere inside the solenoid, and not just along the center axis. The bigger the current, the bigger the magnetic field.

As it so happens, a solenoid is also shape we use for an inductor, right down to it's circuit symbol. A very simple model for an MRI would be an inductor hooked up to a current source, like this:

Image

That picture has an ideal inductor connected to an ideal current source through ideal wires. You'll notice I used the word ideal a lot. A real MRI looks more like this, although the following is still simplified a lot:

Image

An ideal inductor is a purely reactive element. It's impedance is a purely imaginary number. That's a fancy way of saying that any energy it absorbs is returned to the circuit later. The problem is that we can't build an ideal anything. Electrical wire all has a resistance associated with it. The higher resistance an object has, the more power it absorbs. A solenoid is a bunch of wire wrapped in a helix, so since wire has resistance, therefore the inductor does as well. An MRI generates a big magnetic field, meaning it needs a big current. Big current translates to big power consumption by a resistor.

That's where the superconductor comes in. All materials have a certain temperature where their electrical resistance approaches zero. At that temperature, I can pull the resistor off that circuit diagram and pretend I have an ideal inductor - meaning that any energy I use to start the machine will run the machine forever, or until I turn it off.

Resolution of the image is a secondary concern. We successfully process electrical signals all the time that are every bit as sensitive as an MRI without needing a superconductor. We can throw plain old copper wire into an MRI and run it at room temperature and get it to work just fine. That part is just math.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:36 pm 
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I love that you use "exothermic reaction," "the process that fuels stars," and "almost no danger of a runaway reaction" in the same sentence, TheRiov.

The very nature of its being an exothermic reaction that will self-sustain means that there is a danger of a runaway reaction. Otherwise, you know, the stars would stop on their own before running out of fuel, and it wouldn't be an exothermic reaction.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:42 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
I love that you use "exothermic reaction," "the process that fuels stars," and "almost no danger of a runaway reaction" in the same sentence, TheRiov.

The very nature of its being an exothermic reaction that will self-sustain means that there is a danger of a runaway reaction. Otherwise, you know, the stars would stop on their own before running out of fuel, and it wouldn't be an exothermic reaction.


You're correct, but if you limit the fuel, it can't run away. It can use up the fuel it has and then die.

Stars are no different, they just have a lot of fuel.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:51 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
NephyrS wrote:
That said, liquid hydrogen will get you down to around 20k, which should be enough for even the current magnets, I would think. Not positive, though. You might lose some resolution with the rise, but it's not like the technology will no longer work, it will just have to be tweaked.
The problem has very little to do with the fidelity of the image. You may have a mistaken impression of how an MRI works.


I've taken apart and rebuilt NMRs, I'm quite familiar with how they work.

I can see where you were coming from, but you're assuming the need for a particular magnetic field strength necessary for the instrument to function- in fact, you can have much weaker magnetic fields than are currently used, you just get a lower resolution. So in my point, is that with temperature dependent superconductors, you lose some conductivity in the rise from 4 K to 20 K, which assuming the same input of power, will lower your magnetic field strength and thus your resolution.

Also note that even in the 60s there were superconductors that would work well at 30K (thought to be the theoretical max at the time), and in the 80s superconductors were discovered which would work at up to 90K- the former can be used with liquid hydrogen, the latter with liquid nitrogen.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:04 pm 
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TheRiov wrote:
? ok. I'll bite.

TheRiov wrote:
In a theoretical fusion reactor?


I usually laugh when a person brings up an example of a concrete problem (public reaction to nuclear power) and someone attempts to rebut them by saying, "Yeah but there isn't any major opposition to this theoretical process that doesn't exist in a state where it could even be reacted to..."

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:30 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
I love that you use "exothermic reaction," "the process that fuels stars," and "almost no danger of a runaway reaction" in the same sentence, TheRiov.

The very nature of its being an exothermic reaction that will self-sustain means that there is a danger of a runaway reaction. Otherwise, you know, the stars would stop on their own before running out of fuel, and it wouldn't be an exothermic reaction.



Its more than just the available fuel. Stars are self sustaining because they can initiate the reaction to begin with. Gravity provides the densities necessary for fusion to occur. On Earth we have to do it with other processes, such as high energy lasers. It makes the reaction orders of magnitude harder to sustain.

A fission explosion will occur if you exceed a critical mass. (during the Manhattan project they determined what it was by dropping a cylinder of uranium into a tube of uranium--they then used bigger and bigger cylinders until they reached critical mass and the reaction started) A reaction in nuclear reactor must be reigned in with water and control rods to slow the reaction down. Fission occurs naturally and spontaneously. Radioactive materials are radioactive by definition because they spontaneously decay and release energy. That's what a nuclear battery is.

On the other hand, fusion does NOT start itself. A) its an additive process. a single atom cannot fuse without something to fuse to. A Single atom can decay on its own however (fission) b) atomic nuclei don't WANT to fuse together --the electric field repels other nuclei (both have a positive charge) Only if you can force them close enough together then the Strong force takes over and causes fusion. But crossing that charge barrier requires a massive input of energy and you must maintain the particle densities to get a chain reaction.

You cut the power to a runaway fission reaction, it keeps going.
You cut the power to a fusion reaction and it stops-- the energies dissipate. (I'm glossing over this to some extent, because I don't want to get into reactor design)
Stars on the other hand, cannot 'cut the power' because the power is gravity.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:49 pm 
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Okay, TheRiov: describe to me the way that we'll "power" an exothermic fusion reaction. Oh, wait, you can't. Thus, you have no idea whether the reaction will be self-powering. The only exothermic example we've got so far is stars, which are self-powering.

Couple that with safe fission reactor design in which the control rods *engage* on a power loss, as it were, and fission stops when you cut the power, too. Are there other ways it can go wrong? Yes. But there are other ways a hypothetical exothermic fusion could go wrong, too. Until there's a process that moves it out of the hypothetical, it's absolutely silly to even begin to compare public reactions to the two.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:32 pm 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fusion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_power

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Accident potential

There is no possibility of a catastrophic accident in a fusion reactor resulting in major release of radioactivity to the environment or injury to non-staff, unlike modern fission reactors. The primary reason is that nuclear fusion requires precisely controlled temperature, pressure, and magnetic field parameters to generate net energy. If the reactor were damaged, these parameters would be disrupted and the heat generation in the reactor would rapidly cease. In contrast, the fission products in a fission reactor continue to generate heat through beta-decay for several hours or even days after reactor shut-down, meaning that melting of fuel rods is possible even after the reactor has been stopped due to continued accumulation of heat.

There is also no risk of a runaway reaction in a fusion reactor, since the plasma is normally burnt at optimal conditions, and any significant change will render it unable to produce excess heat. In fusion reactors the reaction process is so delicate that this level of safety is inherent; no elaborate failsafe mechanism is required. Although the plasma in a fusion power plant will have a volume of 1000 cubic meters or more, the density of the plasma is extremely low, and the total amount of fusion fuel in the vessel is very small, typically a few grams. If the fuel supply is closed, the reaction stops within seconds. In comparison, a fission reactor is typically loaded with enough fuel for one or several years, and no additional fuel is necessary to keep the reaction going.

In the magnetic approach, strong fields are developed in coils that are held in place mechanically by the reactor structure. Failure of this structure could release this tension and allow the magnet to "explode" outward. The severity of this event would be similar to any other industrial accident or an MRI machine quench/explosion, and could be effectively stopped with a containment building similar to those used in existing (fission) nuclear generators. The laser-driven inertial approach is generally lower-stress. Although failure of the reaction chamber is possible, simply stopping fuel delivery would prevent any sort of catastrophic failure.

Most reactor designs rely on the use of liquid lithium as both a coolant and a method for converting stray neutrons from the reaction into tritium, which is fed back into the reactor as fuel. Lithium is highly flammable, and in the case of a fire it is possible that the lithium stored on-site could be burned up and escape. In this case the tritium contents of the lithium would be released into the atmosphere, posing a radiation risk. However, calculations suggest that the total amount of tritium and other radioactive gases in a typical power plant would be so small, about 1 kg, that they would have diluted to legally acceptable limits by the time they blew as far as the plant's perimeter fence.[12]

The likelihood of small industrial accidents including the local release of radioactivity and injury to staff cannot be estimated yet. These would include accidental releases of lithium, tritium, or mis-handling of decommissioned radioactive components of the reactor itself.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:15 pm 
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NephyrS wrote:
I've taken apart and rebuilt NMRs, I'm quite familiar with how they work.
Lots of people on this board take apart and rebuild computers. Maybe three actually understand how they work, and that estimate is rounded up.
NephyrS wrote:
I can see where you were coming from, but you're assuming the need for a particular magnetic field strength necessary for the instrument to function- in fact, you can have much weaker magnetic fields than are currently used, you just get a lower resolution. So in my point, is that with temperature dependent superconductors, you lose some conductivity in the rise from 4 K to 20 K, which assuming the same input of power, will lower your magnetic field strength and thus your resolution.
This doesn't mean you can run the device at 20K.

A true superconductor has exactly zero resistivity at the proper temperature. There is a huge difference between zero resistance, and whatever resistance is obtained for a wire of a given length and diameter. As a result, you go from using no power to using a shitload of power. In order to keep the total energy usage constant, you are lowering the current by a lot. What's the minimum magnetic field required to get an image at all? How about the minimum field required to get an image that's crappy, but still useful?

Since the thread is about helium, we're probably talking about mercury superconductors. Here's what that temperature graph looks like:
Image
It would be more helpful if it showed the resistivity instead of resistance since we don't know the geometry of the piece of mercury, but that was the best I could find. At any rate, we see a large spike right at 4.2K, and then the graph settles into a linear relationship. Before we get to 4.4K, that piece of mercury is at 0.14 ohms. We've still got another 15K to go before we settle out on your chosen temperature. If you run a mercury-based MRI at 20K, you've got a big resistance. Here's a more advanced superconductor:
Image
You'll see the same thing - a nearly vertical line right at the temperature the material superconducts at.

That's an interesting thing about superconductors: Lots of them perform worse than copper outside of their superconducting range (mercury is one of those materials). We use superconductors because it's too expensive to run those machines using copper at the current that the customer requires to get a satisfactory image. Since we have a material that's worse than copper sitting in that machine... If you run out of helium to cool the superconductor, you end up with a very large, very expensive paperweight. Superconductors aren't cheap. If it were at all feasible to run an MRI at 20K (image quality be damned) with a material that superconducts at 4K, we would have skipped the superconductor entirely, built it out of copper, and run it at room temperature.

True, we have superconductors that run at liquid nitrogen temperatures, but now you're talking about building an entirely new machine. That's expensive. In fact, even if you want to bite the bullet and try running your old MRI, you're going to have to redesign its power supply.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:09 am 
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Wasn't one of the concerns over CERN that they might create an uncontrollable fusion reaction? (Setting aside the fear that they would create a blackhole)

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:41 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
NephyrS wrote:
I've taken apart and rebuilt NMRs, I'm quite familiar with how they work.
Lots of people on this board take apart and rebuild computers. Maybe three actually understand how they work, and that estimate is rounded up.


I get that you know about superconductivity. The theory at least. But the fact that you assume they're using mercury superconductors means you probably don't know much about the actual construction of MRI's or NMR's.

Additionally, it wouldn't take rebuilding the entire instrument to replace the superconductor, it would take some re-working of the power control box, and the replacement of the actual superconductor itself. Most of the rest would stay as-is.

Nb-Ti superconductors were common in earlier models (Tcrit of 10K), but they can only stand fields up to about 15 T, which is too small for most common instruments.

The higher the Tcrit of the superconductor, the higher magnetic field it can withstand at a given temperature below the Tcrit- ideally, you want something with a much higher Tcrit that you cool as low as you can. Some of the current generation (since 2006) MRIs are being built with MgBr2 superconductors (Tcrit 39K), which can be run without liquid helium.

But just because they're cooled with helium doesn't mean they're mercury... Really, it just means that it's got a higher Tcrit and they want to push the field as high as they can to get better resolution images.

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