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 Post subject: Russian $650B rearmament
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:39 pm 
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Moscow – The graying bear is getting a make-over. Russia's military is launching its biggest rearmament effort since Soviet times, including a $650 billion program to procure 1,000 new helicopters, 600 combat planes, 100 warships, and 8 nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines.
Analysts say Russia, while already the world's fifth-largest military spender, needs strong conventional forces to reduce its overreliance on its aging Soviet-era nuclear missile deterrent. Valentin Rudenko, director of the independent Interfax-Military News Agency, says it could create "a whole new ballgame."

"For about two decades we've had no real modernization, at least not like what's being proposed now," he says. "Russia will finally have a modern, top-level armed forces that are capable of protecting the country."

IN PICTURES: World's Top 10 Military Spenders

Deputy Defense Minister Vladimir Popovkin last week announced the unprecedented new outlays, which will see a massive re-equipping of Russia's strategic nuclear deterrent as well as its conventional forces. The Defense Ministry today said the "modernization drive" will begin this year with the deployment of new generations of air defense and antimissile weapons by Russian ground forces.

The impressive shopping spree comes on the heels of a painful military reform that severely downsized Russia's conscript Army, eliminating 9 out of 10 Soviet-era units and cutting 200,000 officers. The goal now, experts say, is to equip Russia's new lean-and-mean, largely professional armed forces to face 21st-century threats. These are mainly considered to be regional conflicts such as the brief 2008 Russo-Georgian war, which highlighted military shortcomings.

Skepticism over spending

Much of the new spending will go toward revamping Russia's naval forces, which are slated to receive new submarines, 35 naval corvettes, 15 frigates, and 4 Mistral-type helicopter-transporting amphibious assault ships. Two of the $750 million Mistrals will be purchased from France, and two are to be constructed in Russian shipyards.

Some experts are deeply skeptical of the expenditures – especially the expensive purchase of Mistral helicopter carriers, which are designed to project power around the globe rather than fight the defensive and local wars that Russian military doctrine declares as the country's main priority.

"It's hard to see what our Navy needs these Mistral money pits for," says Viktor Baranets, a former defense ministry spokesman who's now military correspondent for the Moscow daily Komsomolskaya Pravda. He says they may be prestigious, "but they require a huge amount of protection. At any time, half the Russian Navy may be employed just escorting these ships around the world."

The new submarines will be designed to deploy a brand-new long-range nuclear missile, the Bulava, which has failed half of its flight tests so far. "Defense ministers can make promises, but no designer or engineer can promise that the Bulava will be operational in time," says Mr. Baranets.

Uncertainty over new stealth fighter

Experts point out that most of the new weaponry to be procured is actually based on old, Soviet-era designs, including the Mi-28 helicopter gunship, the Mi-26 transport helicopter, and the Sukhoi Su-35 multirole fighter plane.

"These are all designs from the late Soviet period, and not really new at all," says Alexander Golts, military expert with the online newsmagazine Yezhednevny Zhurnal. "The lack of fresh designs shows the underlying weakness of our military-industrial complex."

The only truly new weapons being rolled out, says Mr. Golts, are the trouble-plagued Bulava missile and the much-hyped "fifth-generation" fighter plane that Russia is reportedly developing with India.

"We don't know enough about this Russian fifth-generation fighter to tell whether it is the real thing" – a futuristic stealth fighter comparable to the US Air Force's F-22 and F-35 warplanes – "or if it's just a jumped-up version of something old," says Golts.

Critics say that despite the huge sums of money slated to be injected into the rearmament program, it is far short of the amounts needed to revive Russia's moribund military-industrial complex, which has lost the vast network of subcontractors that existed in Soviet times.

"This is not the first time the Kremlin has talked about military modernization," says Golts. "But all previous programs have failed."


This is, as I understand it, to take place over the next 9 years, so its not as if they're spending $650 billion in one year, but it's still evident of the Russian desire to return to superpower status.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:49 pm 
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I'm not sure what they'd ever use a large military against.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:53 pm 
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They have plenty of ex-Soviet republics around them to bully. Besides that, there's China and NATO. I doubt they would ever start a war with NATO, but you have to ahve some hard power to back up your soft power when you're a country the size of Russia.

Some of it is simply a desire for national prestige, some of it is paranoia left over from 2 World Wars, and some of it is the desire to be the big kid on the block. Russia likes to ***** about what the U.S. does in a large part because it wants to dot he same and, at the moment, can't.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:33 pm 
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If China and Russia go to war, poor Mongolia and do we sit this one out other than diplomatic efforts?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:57 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
They have plenty of ex-Soviet republics around them to bully. Besides that, there's China and NATO. I doubt they would ever start a war with NATO, but you have to ahve some hard power to back up your soft power when you're a country the size of Russia.

Some of it is simply a desire for national prestige, some of it is paranoia left over from 2 World Wars, and some of it is the desire to be the big kid on the block. Russia likes to ***** about what the U.S. does in a large part because it wants to dot he same and, at the moment, can't.


I don't know. I don't think any of these things will happen with China or Nato, and they don't need a $650 billion military to bully small countries. I think it's going to be a big waste of money for them. They should instead allocate more resources to fiberoptic infrastructure, wireless networks, and renewable energy.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:38 pm 
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I think an important question... if Russia obliterates China... do we still owe a non existent country our debt or is that all gone?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:42 pm 
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darksiege wrote:
I think an important question... if Russia obliterates China... do we still owe a non existent country our debt or is that all gone?


Debt is just numbers on a bunch of computers. Large industries would be wiped out and it would absolutely wreck our economy. A lot of our goods come from China.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:58 pm 
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Lex Luthor wrote:
darksiege wrote:
I think an important question... if Russia obliterates China... do we still owe a non existent country our debt or is that all gone?


Debt is just numbers on a bunch of computers. Large industries would be wiped out and it would absolutely wreck our economy. A lot of our goods come from China.


Ummm... no it isn't.

Debt is quite real.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:59 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Lex Luthor wrote:
darksiege wrote:
I think an important question... if Russia obliterates China... do we still owe a non existent country our debt or is that all gone?


Debt is just numbers on a bunch of computers. Large industries would be wiped out and it would absolutely wreck our economy. A lot of our goods come from China.


Ummm... no it isn't.

Debt is quite real.


People can change numbers in a computer to make debt whatever they want. Debt is a trade agreement of how much work (or equivalents to work) you owe someone basically.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:05 am 
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Lex Luthor wrote:
Rynar wrote:
Lex Luthor wrote:
Debt is just numbers on a bunch of computers. Large industries would be wiped out and it would absolutely wreck our economy. A lot of our goods come from China.


Ummm... no it isn't.

Debt is quite real.


People can change numbers in a computer to make debt whatever they want. Debt is a trade agreement of how much work (or equivalents to work) you owe someone basically.


Yes, and the things exchanged for that debt are real and have hard values. So the value of the acquired debt is real. This is why other nations object to the devaluation of currency to pay off debt in a numerical sense.

Is it your contention that the bond market, much like cake, is a lie?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:13 am 
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Are we sure this isn't spending just to get back to oppressing Georgians Chechen and intimidating Ukrainians?

edit: Fixed ethnicity above and added below:
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id ... _article=1
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Islamist rebel urges 'total war' with RussiaThe Chechen Islamist rebel leader who is Russia's most wanted man has issued an appeal for recruits for a "total war" against the Russian state, in a new video message posted on Thursday.
"A total war is in progress, fight the enemy where ever you can," Doku Umarov said standing alongside two other militants in a snow-covered forest in a video posted on militant website hunafa.com.

As well as repeating calls for women to join the rebellion, Umarov called on Russian Muslims from outside the Caucasus like the Volga regions of Tatarstan and Bashkortostan to join the insurgency.

Umarov, whose Caucasus Emirate group aims to impose Islamic rule throughout the Northern Caucasus, has claimed responsibility for the Moscow airport attack in January that killed 37 and the 2010 metro attacks that killed 40.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:53 pm 
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That's what I originally said; this is in a large part about bullying ex-Soviet republics and ex East-bloc countries.

I don't see any reason to think Russia wants to start a war with China or NATO; a part of it is to be prepared in case war does come.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:05 pm 
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It's so we might think twice about sticking our nose in when they do go bully said smaller former client states.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:30 pm 
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The world would be a safer place if Russia went into Chechnya on a genocidal crusade. Any people that invoke Allah (or equivalent) to justify their violence are problematic.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:56 am 
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Talya wrote:
The world would be a safer place if Russia went into Chechnya on a genocidal crusade. Any people that invoke Allah (or equivalent) to justify their violence are problematic.


Any people that invoke "safety" to justify genocide are problematic too.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:31 am 
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Rynar wrote:
Lex Luthor wrote:
Rynar wrote:
Ummm... no it isn't.

Debt is quite real.


People can change numbers in a computer to make debt whatever they want. Debt is a trade agreement of how much work (or equivalents to work) you owe someone basically.


Yes, and the things exchanged for that debt are real and have hard values. So the value of the acquired debt is real. This is why other nations object to the devaluation of currency to pay off debt in a numerical sense.

Is it your contention that the bond market, much like cake, is a lie?


In a related note:

PIMCO, who is the world's largest bond holder, has dumped 100% of US Government debt in it's Total Return Fund.

Think about that.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:23 am 
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The United States will most likely be downgraded to Single A bond rating sometime in the next 90 days.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:58 am 
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Khross wrote:
The United States will most likely be downgraded to Single A bond rating sometime in the next 90 days.

Willing to put money (and a bit more specificity) behind that prophesy?

Seriously. Japan is at aa2, so seeing the US go to a single a? Unlikely.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:37 am 
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The ratio Federal debt to GDP is already at Single A levels for the United States. Wednesday's bond auction sold 10 year 10,000 dollar notes at 3.3% yield. PIMCO is, by the way, the largest bond holding mutual fund on the planet and converted some 12% of the 100% Return Fund away from U.S. bonds. Like I said, the U.S. should be downgraded to single A sometime in the next 90 days.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:45 am 
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Taskiss wrote:
Khross wrote:
The United States will most likely be downgraded to Single A bond rating sometime in the next 90 days.

Willing to put money (and a bit more specificity) behind that prophesy?

Seriously. Japan is at aa2, so seeing the US go to a single a? Unlikely.

He doesn't have a good track record on paying up when he loses...

Just saying...

/jab

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:19 am 
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The books are in the same drawer as FarSky's CD. I just actually need to go to the post-office :P

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:27 pm 
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Khross wrote:
The United States will most likely be downgraded to Single A bond rating sometime in the next 90 days.


Saving this quote. I see 90 days being... June 11th.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:28 pm 
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Khross wrote:
The ratio Federal debt to GDP is already at Single A levels for the United States. Wednesday's bond auction sold 10 year 10,000 dollar notes at 3.3% yield. PIMCO is, by the way, the largest bond holding mutual fund on the planet and converted some 12% of the 100% Return Fund away from U.S. bonds. Like I said, the U.S. should be downgraded to single A sometime in the next 90 days.


By the way, an interview with one of the managers at Pimco stated that there's an argument to go to AA, but not lower.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:46 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Khross wrote:
The ratio Federal debt to GDP is already at Single A levels for the United States. Wednesday's bond auction sold 10 year 10,000 dollar notes at 3.3% yield. PIMCO is, by the way, the largest bond holding mutual fund on the planet and converted some 12% of the 100% Return Fund away from U.S. bonds. Like I said, the U.S. should be downgraded to single A sometime in the next 90 days.
By the way, an interview with one of the managers at Pimco stated that there's an argument to go to AA, but not lower.
We're already AA. You should listen to that interview more carefully, too; because the manager and founder of Pimco indicated that the United States was already at debt/gdp ratios similar to countries rated A or lower.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:59 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Khross wrote:
The ratio Federal debt to GDP is already at Single A levels for the United States. Wednesday's bond auction sold 10 year 10,000 dollar notes at 3.3% yield. PIMCO is, by the way, the largest bond holding mutual fund on the planet and converted some 12% of the 100% Return Fund away from U.S. bonds. Like I said, the U.S. should be downgraded to single A sometime in the next 90 days.
By the way, an interview with one of the managers at Pimco stated that there's an argument to go to AA, but not lower.
We're already AA. You should listen to that interview more carefully, too; because the manager and founder of Pimco indicated that the United States was already at debt/gdp ratios similar to countries rated A or lower.


But he was not arguing that we should also be there.

Also, where are you seeing we are at AA?

Quote:
March 11 (Bloomberg) -- Bill Gross, who runs the world's biggest bond fund at Pacific Investment Management Co., discusses the outlook for the U.S.'s AAA credit rating. Gross, speaking from Newport Beach, California, with Margaret Brennan on Bloomberg Television's "InBusiness," also talks about the 8.9-magnitude earthquake that struck Japan and the Federal Reserve's quantitative easing. (Source: Bloomberg)


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