The Glade 4.0

We have a large screen porch, so all of my gardening has been in pots for a couple years. This is my first year trying to get stuff to grow out in the yard.

Soil in coastal South Florida is a pain in the neck. It's not like that nice dark brown stuff up north that will grow just about anything you put in it. Instead, it's about a foot of sand with a little dirt mixed in, and then another foot of that same stuff except packed really hard with limestone. There's so much sand in the soil that when you water, the water doesn't really soak in, it just floats around on top. After watering, if you scratch the ground with your finger, you can see that anything under about 1/4 inch is still dry as a bone. Plus, that limestone layer is packed so hard I doubt the roots would break through it.

I spent yesterday tilling up the soil down to about a foot and a half. At the recommendation of a website, I covered the area in 3mil clear plastic sheeting, and will leave it for a week to bake out all the nematodes and bacteria and stuff. After that, I'm going to mix in my compost and mulch, and throw in some home depot gardening soil too...

I'm wondering if anyone's ever dealt with trying to enrich bad soil, particularly limey sandy stuff. I'll take any help I can get!

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What are you trying to grow?

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I'm starting with tomatoes, cucuzza, and pole beans. I've been breeding the tomatoes for the climate for a couple years, but that was in pots. March is about the cutoff for how late I can plant tomatoes and still have them bear fruit.

The pole beans have grown stupendously in the hot climate, and the cucuzza shouldn't be as big of an issue in the sandy soil if I can actually get the flowers to pollinate this year. I'm hoping the bees will help with that part.

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I don't have any advice but please let me know how it goes as I want to do something with the 3 foot layer of clay that is about 1/2 an inch under my whole yard.

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Both of you should consider starting with raised beds where you basically build a box and fill it with good soil, then add any enrichments you like. Both clay and overly sandy soil are a ***** to grow anything in.

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The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones

I am actually looking to do something with the bulk of the yard as the grass bakes off in dry heat or the whole mess floods with a decent rainfall.

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Hopwin: Remove the clay with a backhoe. Fill in with real dirt. It's the only way to be sure.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

What Kaffis said.

I'm typing this without a clue as to how high a percentage of clay you have in your yard.

Make sure you get several pairs of good work gloves. Clay can bake pretty solid and doesn't absorb moisture well. There is a reason the California missions were made out of adobe, the ingredients were readily available (sand, clay, straw and merde), the natives already knew how to make it, mostly, and it sheds water nicely. If you don't go the backhoe method you need to break the clay it up into tiny pieces and add one heck of a lot of fertilizer and good soil. This is a lot of work.

Start composting now if you haven't already, you'll need as much as you can make if not more.

On the other hand, if you get a potters wheel and a kiln you can use the clay for other projects.

Also you can start with one raised bed and build more as you get around to needing them.

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The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones

I would agree with Michael by starting with raised beds. Our school courtyard has hardly any room for roots at all and I live in an area with the dark nutrient rich soil. In the summer a few kids and one of our local teachers' tend to the gardens and grow Tomatoes, Bell peppers, and Egg plants. They also have different varities of flowers. It is just easier to start in raised beds expecially in the soil that you are describing.

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"None is more important, none more legitimate, than that of rendering the people safe as they are the
ultimate guardians of their own liberty."- Thomas Jefferson

"Yeah, I'm rehearsing my poker face. I don't handle stupid well. *sigh*" - Farsky

Everywhere that I have dug in my backyard has had clay at depths of at least 3 feet (put in a fence and digging the post holes was a MUTHER****). It starts anywhere from 1/2 to three inches beneath the surface and seemingly never ends. I was hoping to break it up and mix it in with compost or biochar:

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/03 ... answer.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biochar

However, if anyone wants to stop by and pick-up a block to take to their local pottery wheel... just shoot me a PM

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Well, that is one way to recycle old girlfriends, but you still need a lot of vegetable matter and I doubt the police would look the other way for long. Are you in a rural area now? I thought you were an urban guy?

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The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones

Suburban. However, small fires are allowed in firepits for "cooking". I am thinking if I did it gradually all would be well.

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I'd recommend a few things....


Get some nice mushroom soil delivered from a local nursery along with some normal soil and possibly some compost. Depending on the nursery, sometimes they'll have a nice readymade mix they sell....something that's like 30% mushroom soil, 20% compost, 10% sand, and the rest regular soil would be GREAT! Till those soils into the junk you already have. Make sure it's tilled very very well. Go as deep as you can with the tiller and keep adding the good soil.

Don't bother with the home depot soil....for the price, like I said above, you can have a local nursery deliver soil to you for much cheaper and it'll be better soil. Up here in Delaware/Maryland, I can get a yard of good soil delivered for $20.00. Depending on the size of your garden, 1-2 yards would be plenty.

A raised box is a good way to start but in my opinion, factoring in the time and money it'll take you to make a nice/deep/good enough box for what you want, you're better off doing what I stated above.

I had not considered the nursery option. I like it! Thanks!

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The nurseries up here are great.....when I first moved into my house 7 years ago, our yard was HORRIBLE. The home site was on an old corn field where you would think would have great soil....and it did(before they scraped it all off to build the development). Anyway, I had 8 yards of good soil delivered and retilled my entire yard, mixed in that soil. It doesn't take alot of good soil, mixed with crap (in my case all clay) before I had a yard that wasn't as barren and dry as rock.

Good suggestion on the raised beds, depending on how you do them it can also make it easier to work in them with less bending. Readd also had a good suggestion with the soil delivery. The biggest thing to remember is it takes time to develop a good garden. Many people want instant improvement and you can do a lot in a season but to get it to the point you really want it can take a couple of seasons, especially for clay soil. Keep adding your amendments each year and tilling it in and it will get easier every year. Adding good organic material will get the bacteria and other organisms going and that will help even more.

For the sandy stuff it is the same thing keep adding organic material with the sand and till it in well. Also add peat moss for water retention. Maybe Hopwin can send you some of his clay soil. Good compost and peat will eventually help the soil retain more water, but keep checking the soil for drainage you don't want it to hold too much and drown anything. Again it will take time but once you get it going you will be able to tell the difference and it will be worth it.

I miss my old house I had good topsoil down almost 5 feet, contrasted to my current house where it is all clay. Aeration twice a year and adding soil in a thin layer each year and it is finally coming around but not nearly as good as the old house.

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I met this six-year-old child, with this blank, pale, emotionless face and, the blackest eyes... the devil's eyes. I spent eight years trying to reach him, and then another seven trying to keep him locked up because I realized what was living behind that boy's eyes was purely and simply... evil

I just made my first raised bed for gardening. If I can figure out how to post the picture of this over-engineered thing, I will.

I have dense clay they refer to as gumbo. It is pretty alkaline also.

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Memento Vivere

I have local knowledge.
That sandbar was not there yesterday!

Did someone say over-engineered?!


General view

Corner detail

I built a couple of months ago, with lumber originally intended for another project. Those boards are 2x8 green, untreated pine. The corner posts are 4x4s, sunk in either 12" or 18". The screws are 3 3/4 inch deck screws. I still want to put a 1x3 strip on top of one long side, as sort of a place to sit when working on the garden. Raised beds are the best. Amending soil out here, for me, takes a lot of work (I have no tiller, 'spose I could rent one). At out other house, I put in a lot of work on the soil, but seem to have made no progress after three years.

Actually, over-engineering in the case of raised beds is a good thing; they typically don't last very long, so if you can squeeze an extra year or two out of your materials, that's cool.

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This cold and dark tormented hell
Is all I`ll ever know
So when you get to heaven
May the devil be the judge

When building them, be sure to use wood that will resist rotting like cedar, or Treated lumber. Railroad ties work well too but are harder to work with because of the weight, but you can gravity stack them and they stay pretty well. Some don't like to use treated lumber for foodstuffs in raised beds but I haven't seen enough research to make me think otherwise. Use outdoor decking screws or hot dipped galvanized nails for treated wood.

Yours looks pretty nice Aethien.

Thanks! Most sources I've read suggest untreated wood. I'll be curious how this stuff lasts.

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This cold and dark tormented hell
Is all I`ll ever know
So when you get to heaven
May the devil be the judge

Did the sources that suggested untreated do so because of health concerns related to arsenic?

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

*grumbles*

My dog thinks I made her a wonderful sandbox/napping spot. I put some construction netting around it, and she promptly jumped in, declaring it her new crib.

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Memento Vivere

I have local knowledge.
That sandbar was not there yesterday!

Local stray cats think I've made them a nice large litter box, yes.

And, yes, arsenic is the thinking, Vindicarre.

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This cold and dark tormented hell
Is all I`ll ever know
So when you get to heaven
May the devil be the judge

I had a feeling folks were still talking about that. I believe they stopped selling chromated copper arsenate (CCA) for residential use in 2003. The new chemicals they use are supposed to be absorbed in (nearly) undetectable levels in plants grown in beds using pressure treated wood.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko