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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:57 pm 
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Almost all unions, even private sector unions, are subsidized by the tax-payer in one way or another.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:03 pm 
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Everything is subsidized by the tax-payer in one way or another.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:04 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
The problem is that the private sector unions are wholly subsidized by the public sector ones. If you back out public sector union employees the number of unionized works drops to under 10% of the work force.


Then we'd better mandate that everyone join a union in order to keep them strong. /facepalm

On a lighter note, it looks like somebody took to heart the violent rhetoric being thrown about by union supporters:
Capitol Chaos: Lawmakers Get Death Threats

Quote:
By Jon Byman
Story Created: Mar 10, 2011
Story Updated: Mar 10, 2011
MADISON - The State Department of Justice confirms that it is investigating several death threats against a number of lawmakers in response to the legislature's move to strip employees of many collective bargaining rights.
Among the threats the Justice Department is investigationg is one that was emailed to Republican Senators Wednesday night. Newsradio 620 WTMJ has obtained that email.The following is the unedited email:
Please put your things in order because you will be killed and your familes
will also be killed due to your actions in the last 8 weeks. Please explain
to them that this is because if we get rid of you and your families then it
will save the rights of 300,000 people and also be able to close the deficit
that you have created. I hope you have a good time in hell. Read below for
more information on possible scenarios in which you will die.

WE want to make this perfectly clear. Because of your actions today and in
the past couple of weeks I and the group of people that are working with me
have decided that we've had enough. We feel that you and the people that
support the dictator have to die. We have tried many other ways of dealing
with your corruption but you have taken things too far and we will not stand
for it any longer. So, this is how it's going to happen: I as well as many
others know where you and your family live, it's a matter of public records.
We have all planned to assult you by arriving at your house and putting a
nice little bullet in your head. However, we decided that we wouldn't leave
it there. We also have decided that this may not be enough to send the
message to you since you are so "high" on Koch and have decided that you are
now going to single handedly make this a dictatorship instead of a
demorcratic process. So we have also built several bombs that we have placed
in various locations around the areas in which we know that you frequent.
This includes, your house, your car, the state capitol, and well I won't
tell you all of them because that's just no fun. Since we know that you are
not smart enough to figure out why this is happening to you we have decided
to make it perfectly clear to you. If you and your goonies feel that it's
necessary to strip the rights of 300,000 people and ruin their lives, making
them unable to feed, clothe, and provide the necessities to their families
and themselves then We Will "get rid of" (in which I mean kill) you. Please
understand that this does not include the heroic Rep. Senator that risked
everything to go aganist what you and your goonies wanted him to do. We feel
that it's worth our lives to do this, because we would be saving the lives
of 300,000 people. Please make your peace with God as soon as possible and
say goodbye to your loved ones we will not wait any longer. YOU WILL DIE!!!!
Reply Reply to all Forward

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:09 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Uncle Fester wrote:
Public sector unions, those that are tax paid, I lack an expletive strong enough to describe my emotion and thoughts about that parasitic group....{B}eing able to elect the person who sits down and determines your pay....recipe for financial disaster.

Do you feel the same way about a non-union government employee who negotiates his own contract and tries to get the best deal he can in the process? Should government employees just accept whatever wage & benefit package the government offers, or should they be free to ask for a raise, more vacation days, etc.?



The politician should be representing the tax payers, but instead is motivated to increase the public unions benefits that would in turn increase his caimpaign contributions from the union...a very corrupt system.

Having never worked for the government, how are pay and benefits determined? Or are we just asking hypothetical? I feel that like all employee's both private and public it should be based on responsibility and performance. Very vague I know, but lacking specifics to argue over.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:32 pm 
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Other than their effect (increased labor costs) what specifically what do you disagree with regarding the concept of unions? Its basically a free association thing.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:35 pm 
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TheRiov wrote:
Other than their effect (increased labor costs) what specifically what do you disagree with regarding the concept of unions? Its basically a free association thing.


I believe he already explained that regarding Public Sector Unions:

Uncle Fester wrote:
Public sector unions, those that are tax paid, I lack an expletive strong enough to describe my emotion and thoughts about that parasitic group.

I am sure there are some fine bureaucrats out there and wonderful teachers, again to avoid the usual charge, being anti union does not make you anti education or teacher. But being able to elect the person who sits down and determines your pay....recepie for financial disaster. Sorry the rest of the country is hurting and you get to make sacrifices too.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:37 pm 
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That email is upsetting Vindi.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:38 pm 
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TheRiov wrote:
Other than their effect (increased labor costs) what specifically what do you disagree with regarding the concept of unions? Its basically a free association thing.
Collective bargaining is an extension of free association, and to that end, you will find that very few of us actually oppose collective bargaining in concept or most practice. What we oppose, and reference by using the term "unions" in place of "collective bargaining", is the American union industry. Unions have long since ceased being agents of the laborers and become an industry unto themselves that bilks both workers and businesses of money, productivity, freedom, and time. The Unions serve themselves at the expense of everyone else in this nation. And Public Sector Unions are the worst, because they bilk the tax-payer directly.

Were unions actually performing reasonable and healthy collective bargaining for workers, you would see little to no general dislike among the population.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:40 pm 
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Yeah, Aizle, it's rare to be able to read one of those (at least for me). The realization of what people in the public eye have to put up with makes me glad I never chose that route.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:44 pm 
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Vindicarre wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
The problem is that the private sector unions are wholly subsidized by the public sector ones. If you back out public sector union employees the number of unionized works drops to under 10% of the work force.


Then we'd better mandate that everyone join a union in order to keep them strong. /facepalm


Way to miss the point. I honestly don't feel strongly either way on this. On the one hand it is a blow to workers every where despite efforts to paint these people as greedy buggers, on the other hand Unions have overstepped their bounds and lost sight of their true mission. As I said, when the workers are trampled again to an intolerable the unions will return with a clear mandate, grow fat and out of control, etc. It's a never ending pendulum.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:44 pm 
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That said Khross, how do you see a Neo-Union functioning?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:49 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
Vindicarre wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
The problem is that the private sector unions are wholly subsidized by the public sector ones. If you back out public sector union employees the number of unionized works drops to under 10% of the work force.


Then we'd better mandate that everyone join a union in order to keep them strong. /facepalm


Way to miss the point. I honestly don't feel strongly either way on this. On the one hand it is a blow to workers every where despite efforts to paint these people as greedy buggers, on the other hand Unions have overstepped their bounds and lost sight of their true mission. As I said, when the workers are trampled again to an intolerable the unions will return with a clear mandate, grow fat and out of control, etc. It's a never ending pendulum.


I can only assume that your point was that without the public sector unions, the private sector unions would fail, and that is a "problem". Since the only way to stop this failure (according to your allegation that the number of unionized workers would drop below 10%) would be to legislate union membership...oh wait, there are already laws that do that.

I don't think I am the one that missed the point.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:50 pm 
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God I hate the Neo prefix being tossed about so willy nilly anymore. Not just here but in general. Neo-Cons, Neo-Libs, Neo-Neos. I just wanna catch em in a pokeball and drown the lot.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:59 pm 
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Ok, call it a Khross-union. Doesn't matter to me.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:21 pm 
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http://city-journal.org/2011/eon0306sm.html

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:35 pm 
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Rush this morning had a snipit from Michael Moore saying that this is a war, and if you are in driving distance form Madison go and do whatever is neccessary to get resolution for the union side.

**** Michael Moore and his nutjob mind.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:07 pm 
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darksiege wrote:
Rush this morning had a snipit from Michael Moore saying that this is a war, and if you are in driving distance form Madison go and do whatever is neccessary to get resolution for the union side.

**** Michael Moore and his nutjob mind.


So they only want democracy when its in their favor and civility when its someone against them. **** that noise.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:19 pm 
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Hannibal wrote:
So they only want democracy when its in their favor and civility when its someone against them. **** that noise.


Combine Michael Moore with the asshat that provided the death threat... I am thinking if any rioters get shot, they had it coming. (may be **** up, but if it works for the Canadian court systems... it works for me. *EG* )

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:14 am 
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Vindicarre wrote:
I can only assume that your point was that without the public sector unions, the private sector unions would fail, and that is a "problem". Since the only way to stop this failure (according to your allegation that the number of unionized workers would drop below 10%) would be to legislate union membership...oh wait, there are already laws that do that.

I don't think I am the one that missed the point.

Clearly you did since I didn't say we have to do anything. People don't feel the work environment is too one-sided currently so let Unions fade and the demise of them in the Public Sector will kill them in the Private Sector. When **** gets bad enough they'll come back. As I said it's cyclical.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:47 am 
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Yeah, I guess that when someone says there's a "problem", they think it's a, you know, problem. Guess I'm just oblivious like that.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:56 am 
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A corrupt or overpowerful union is always the fault of management. Always. If I can get $30/hour for a job worth $20 you think I'm not going to take it? Unions don't have anything that wasn't given to them. When you're talking about shitty unions, you need to blame the executives who were only worried about that quarter's profit, or the politicians that were just worried about their poll numbers, who handed the union everything to prevent a strike.

Also, a lot of the "productivity killing" unions do is just helping enforce the law, and countering some of the really shady tactics employers use to get extra work out of people without paying them. A great example would be the 40-hour work week. If you're an hourly employee and work more than 40 hours you're supposed to get overtime. If you're union, that 40 hours is set in stone. You will get your overtime if you're made to work one minute more than that.

Conversely, I don't know many non-union hourly employees that only work 40 hours. They're getting paid for 40, but they're actually doing an extra 5-10 hours of unpaid work per week. I have personal experience with this. Not understanding this actually cost me my first job out of college, it took me awhile to get it. The companies do a great job covering their asses. When you get hired you will be told repeatedly that there is no overtime authorized. You are made to sign a statement where you promise that you will not work unpaid, and that you will report it to XXXXX if anyone asks that you do so. Yet when you start working, strangely, the duties you get are seemingly impossible to complete in a 40-hour week. But as you get told again and again, no overtime is authorized. Obviously, what you're supposed to "get" is that you're supposed to just work 5-10 hours extra to get the **** done, but only write 40 hours on your timesheet. If you refuse to comply with this process you will get a call some Friday night after work that you've been fired for "unspecified" reasons or that "it just wasn't working out." Now if you have a union, even if it's the most conservative, above-board union in existence, the employer can't do this. They need to produce cause to fire you, which makes it very difficult to squeeze out unpaid overtime in this manner. By unionizing, you just got yourself a 10-25% raise even if your hourly rate didn't change just because you now have someone on "your side."

So the question is, when a union destroys productivity by preventing stuff like this, does that really reflect badly on the union?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:20 am 
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Wow ...

On what fantasy planet do you live?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:25 am 
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I'm talking from personal experience. To clarify, I didn't hate this job or think I was underpaid or overworked in said job, but I have worked next to union people who left at 4:30 PM on the dot every day, regardless of what work was left to be done or what deadlines needed to be met, when I would have almost certainly been fired (and was, once) if I did the same thing, despite having the same hours officially in my job description.

This type of practice is common all over the workforce. It's the same thing in call centers, you're given an ethics code that's drummed into your head then given metrics which are impossible to meet without repeatedly violating said ethics code. It lets the company get extra work from you and then blame you if someone calls them on it.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:32 am 
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You work in New York or New Jersey right?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:45 am 
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Khross, that kind of thing happens outside of New York and New Jersey. Perhaps you've been in academia a bit too long.

I was hired for a job (salaried) where I was specifically told by the hiring manager that the expectation was 45 hours per week. During a discussion once with HR (as a side conversation while working on the HR directors PC) it came up that the expectations were a 40 hour work week. I was also chastised once by my boss for only working a 45 hour work week, when all of my projects were on time and any time sensative work was completed.

This is not uncommon in the slightest.


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