The Glade 4.0

I think this is the best summation I've seen of what Libya tells us about the so-called "Obama Doctrine":

Heh.

Remember all those people questioning his executive experience? This is the kind of thing you expect from an inexperienced exec. Poor clarity in direction, a timid approach to management, etc.

If he's reelected, I suspect he'll do a bit better on that end. He's not currently very effective, but I'm not exactly disappointed about that either.

There's not enough "nuance" there RD.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

Huh. Actually, I have the opposite view - I expect an inexperienced exec to rely too heavily on general principles and textbook models instead of performing a case-by-case analysis.

*chuckle* Indeed!

Then, because this is precisely a text book maneuver from his party handlers, you're pissed?

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How is it a text book maneuver, and why do you think it was driven by his "handlers"?

I don't think he's experienced enough to know the general principles and textbook models and be able to relate them to this situation.

I think this is a decision based on "omg the people think i'm not acting decisively or quickly enough. hurry, let's do something quick and decisive!"

Lack of experience = not fully involving Congress, explaining late to the American People, not fully thinking out the long term consequences

20th Century History ...

When all else fails, start a war.

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I'm all for taking out Gaddafi but The Chosen One has zero credibility. Had he and his party and all his followers not been ***** and yelling and complaining and whining about how W got us into a mess, he might be a little more credible. Like the other thread, he ran on not being Bush but is doing everything Bush did and his supporters are just going right along with maybe a slight "tsk tsk" as a show of displeasure. The hypocrisy is enough to melt your face.

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

So you see no difference between:

1. W deciding to expand Afghanistan and attacking Iraq on trumped up charges and without UN backing, when Iraq was basically stable (although admittedly totalitarian)

and

2. O providing the initial air support and logistics to kick off a UN approved action against Libya and then taking the back seat to other member countries as they continue the mission

We don't answer to the UN.

That things were "trumped up" has yet to be proven.

Thank you for proving my point.

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

Obviously, however we are a leading member nation, so have some responsibility to support it's actions don't you think?

But you didn't answer my question, do you view both those actions as identicle?

I'm going to go with ...

Hell the **** no.

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I can't answer your question because of the way you worded it. I don't agree that anything was trumped up or that having the UN give us a thumbs up is needed.

What I do know is that for almost 8 years, you and others of your political persuasion derided every military action W took. Pretty much believed every thing the media slung out as long as it conformed to your ideology. But your boy, who you go to GREAT lengths to defend and give the benefit of the doubt on, is doing a-ok in your book. He took action without congress approval just like W did but where is the screaming and hollering? He ran on ending war and gitmo and all that feel good liberal crap, but what's going on?

Sorry, but I see a guy who has done nothing but do everything he said he wouldnt do and the libs just defend and deflect for him. He gave you guys a line just to get voted into office and you swallowed it hook, like and sinker. And now you just defend him to keep from saying that you made a mistake.

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

Actually, Bush had congressional approval, so yeah...Obama is even worse on that issue.


This I disagree with, though. I think people heard what they wanted to hear instead of listening to what the man said. He slammed Bush over Iraq, but he always said Afghanistan was legitimate and needed more troops. He also said he agreed with the interventions in Bosnia and Kosovo and felt we should have intervened in Rwanda. Increasing the number of troops in Afghanistan and attacking Libya as part of a a limited, UN-sponsored, humanitarian intervention (at least so far) are pretty much exactly in line with his prior statements on war.

I don't believe W did that. Congress approved Iraq action.

I love how shooting down aircraft and bombing people is a humanitarian mission.

What a world.

Bush had Congressional approval.

Obama swears only by international law though. Who cares about the Constitution when we have our French and British buddies?

Yeah I got into a flow and didn't correct myself.

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

Actually according to the administration it is a "Kinetic military exercise" proper jargon please

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"Life isn't divided into genres. It's a horrifying, romantic, tragic, comical, science-fiction cowboy detective novel. You know, with a bit of pornography if you're lucky."
— Alan Moore

It's unfortunate you have that impression. Certainly some liberals have derided every military action, but those frankly are the same ones who are deriding Obama's actions.

Speaking for myself, I supported Bush's initial actions in Afghanistan and only became critical once it became obvious that we didn't have an exit strategy. I never supported Bush's actions in Iraq, because it was patently obvious from the start he was looking for an excuse to go and finish what his father started, and I was also pretty much convinced that we didn't have an exit strategy for that engagement as well.

As for Libya, I'm certainly not crazy about the position that we're in there either. I do feel that it's different than Iraq especially, since there was an immediate humanitarian crisis in the making, as Qaddafi would have executed hundreds of people if he would have overrun the rebels. I actually very much like that this is a UN action, not a US action as I want the US to get out of the role of the world's police force, but as DE pointed out, we were the only ones with the manpower and equipment to pull off the initial stages. I have some concerns about the exit strategy here as well, but I view that as a UN problem to deal with, not a US problem to be honest.

Most of the rebels were soldiers who committed treason among other crimes. It's not exactly a humanitarian crisis.

Frankly I don't care about the rebels. They put themselves in harms way and there's a risk/cost to that. My concern is for the many many protesters and other civilians who spoke out against Qaddafi who would be hunted down and beaten/raped/murdered.

I'm not really up on policy in these situations -- but if we're the "only one with the manpower and equipment to pull off" UN directives and initiatives, do we send them a bill?

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades