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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:47 pm 
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Lex Luthor wrote:
It's sad that there are still people who think there's a large difference between the two parties.

I certainly don't, but their back and forth is a bewildering drama nonetheless.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:19 pm 
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Lex Luthor wrote:
It's sad that there are still people who think there's a large difference between the two parties.


There is... one has a belief that they know what to do with your money and you do not, and the other one has a belief that they know what to do with your money and you do not.

oh wait...

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:08 am 
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I don't see how everyone thinks Libya is a great departure from Obama/Democrat thinking.

One of his Admirers FDR was a war president and he has supported actions in Afganistan at various times. Even slick willy was happy to fire missiles at Iraq when it distracted the country from where his own missile had been. The idea of warfare when it suits them is certainly a Democrat idea.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:38 am 
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We've had problems with Tripoli for over 200 years, isn't it about time we take over and colonize the place?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:38 am 
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Lets open some Starbucks there.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:06 am 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Screeling wrote:
Aizle wrote:
As for Libya, I'm certainly not crazy about the position that we're in there either. I do feel that it's different than Iraq especially, since there was an immediate humanitarian crisis in the making, as Qaddafi would have executed hundreds of people if he would have overrun the rebels. I actually very much like that this is a UN action, not a US action as I want the US to get out of the role of the world's police force, but as DE pointed out, we were the only ones with the manpower and equipment to pull off the initial stages. I have some concerns about the exit strategy here as well, but I view that as a UN problem to deal with, not a US problem to be honest.

You keep dodging the fact that Obama initiated an act of war without Congressional approval (as required by the Constitution) because we're playing nice with the world community. Saving the lives of non-US citizens doesn't come anywhere close to being sufficient grounds, if there is such a thing.


I'm fairly certain that the Executive can engage in military matters anywhere provided he answers to Congress within 20 days. I believe that Congress must approve it at that time.

This is a good rule. It enables him to move quickly if needed.

Again, not in the Constitution.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:02 am 
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Screeling wrote:
Again, not in the Constitution.

Well, it's debatable whether the Constitution requires Congressional approval for (a) any military engagement, (b) only those military engagements that rise to the level of "war", or (c) only those military engagements that involve a formal declaration of war. Personally, I think the most plausible answer lies somewhere between (a) and (b), but closer (a).


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:31 am 
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So wait, RD. Lobbing missles into another sovereign nation is not an act of war, but a military engagement? Is that what we would call it if another country did that to the U.S.?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:32 am 
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I guess Pearl Harbor was just a military engagement since they didn't invade with any troops.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:42 am 
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Screeling wrote:
So wait, RD. Lobbing missles into another sovereign nation is not an act of war, but a military engagement? Is that what we would call it if another country did that to the U.S.?

An "act of war" is different than a "war". When Reagan lobbed missiles at Libya ("Rarrrr!! Reagan smash!!!" - sorry, funny mental image there) back in the 80s, it was an "act of war", but it didn't establish a formal state of "war" between our countries, and since no further military actions took place, there was no de facto state of war either. And in terms of the Constitution, military actions of limited scope and duration have been undertaken by Presidents without prior Congressional authorization since the very early years of the country without the proper interpretation of the "Declare War" clause ever really being hashed out. Unfortunately, it's one of those gray areas where the Supreme Court is unlikely to intervene and Congress has generally been quite happy to let Presidents make the call and suffer the political consequences if things go sour.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:03 am 
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Ahh okay. So if they can't/don't retaliate, it's not war. Gotcha.

I'm not sure what you're referring to by engagements "since the very early years." You don't need a declaration of war to put down rebellions in your own country.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:11 am 
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Maybe the war in Star Wars didn't happen until the third movie? (By third I mean sixth, but to say sixth means I validate the existence of the newer Star Wars movies)


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:21 am 
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I read a really well written article on why our whole "get resolutions to attack" rather than getting a declaration of war is bad. I'll post the conclusion. The previous sections are good as well and I'd encourage RD and Aizle to read them and let me know what they think.

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20110328 ... ration-war

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The Importance of the Declaration [of War]

A declaration of war, I am arguing, is an essential aspect of war fighting particularly for the republic when engaged in frequent wars. It achieves a number of things. First, it holds both Congress and the president equally responsible for the decision, and does so unambiguously. Second, it affirms to the people that their lives have now changed and that they will be bearing burdens. Third, it gives the president the political and moral authority he needs to wage war on their behalf and forces everyone to share in the moral responsibility of war. And finally, by submitting it to a political process, many wars might be avoided. When we look at some of our wars after World War II it is not clear they had to be fought in the national interest, nor is it clear that the presidents would not have been better remembered if they had been restrained. A declaration of war both frees and restrains the president, as it was meant to do.

I began by talking about the American empire. I won’t make the argument on that here, but simply assert it. What is most important is that the republic not be overwhelmed in the course of pursuing imperial goals. The declaration of war is precisely the point at which imperial interests can overwhelm republican prerogatives.

There are enormous complexities here. Nuclear war has not been abolished. The United States has treaty obligations to the United Nations and other countries. Covert operations are essential, as is military assistance, both of which can lead to war. I am not making the argument that constant accommodation to reality does not have to be made. I am making the argument that the suspension of Section 8 of Article I as if it is possible to amend the Constitution with a wink and nod represents a mortal threat to the republic. If this can be done, what can’t be done?

My readers will know that I am far from squeamish about war. I have questions about Libya, for example, but I am open to the idea that it is a low-cost, politically appropriate measure. But I am not open to the possibility that quickly after the commencement of hostilities the president need not receive authority to wage war from Congress. And I am arguing that neither the Congress nor the president has the authority to substitute resolutions for declarations of war. Nor should either want to. Politically, this has too often led to disaster for presidents. Morally, committing the lives of citizens to waging war requires meticulous attention to the law and proprieties.

As our international power and interests surge, it would seem reasonable that our commitment to republican principles would surge. These commitments appear inconvenient. They are meant to be. War is a serious matter, and presidents and particularly Congresses should be inconvenienced on the road to war. Members of Congress should not be able to hide behind ambiguous resolutions only to turn on the president during difficult times, claiming that they did not mean what they voted for. A vote on a declaration of war ends that. It also prevents a president from acting as king by default. Above all, it prevents the public from pretending to be victims when their leaders take them to war. The possibility of war will concentrate the mind of a distracted public like nothing else. It turns voting into a life-or-death matter, a tonic for our adolescent body politic.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:32 am 
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Screeling wrote:
I'm not sure what you're referring to by engagements "since the very early years." You don't need a declaration of war to put down rebellions in your own country.

Early naval skirmishes with the French, the lead up to the Barbary Wars, the War of 1812 and the Mexican-American War, various attacks on Indian nations (which were actually considered nations back then), etc. In most cases, Congressional approval and/or formal declarations of war followed, but there were various military actions that occurred at the orders of the President prior to Congressional action.

That said, I don't want to dig in too deeply on this point, because I do think those early examples were very different than the modern wars / military actions initiated by Presidents. There's been a significant shift away from Congress' role in declaring/authorizing wars in the post-WWII era. Truman kicked it off with Korea, and the Cold War increasingly cemented the President's leading role. Now with the forever-war of combating terrorism, it's really becoming a problem.

Screeling wrote:
I read a really well written article on why our whole "get resolutions to attack" rather than getting a declaration of war is bad. I'll post the conclusion. The previous sections are good as well and I'd encourage RD and Aizle to read them and let me know what they think.

Interesting clip. I'll read the full article when I get some time later. Just for the record, though, I'll note that I do think the pendulum needs to swing back toward formal, Congressional declarations of war (or at least authorizations), and I do think Obama is on the wrong side of Constitutional intent with this Libya intervention.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:03 pm 
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Screeling wrote:
I read a really well written article on why our whole "get resolutions to attack" rather than getting a declaration of war is bad. I'll post the conclusion. The previous sections are good as well and I'd encourage RD and Aizle to read them and let me know what they think.


I'll read the full bit later, but I read the quoted section and pretty much completely agree with it.

I dislike how we've engaged all of the "wars" that we're currently involved with. There should be formal declarations and the consequences of those declarations, both internally and externally.

With Libya, I can understand why the president moved as he did, but what should be happening next is getting a formal declaration of war, or we pull out.

The same should have taken place for Iraq and Afghanistan, although I think the horse is basically out of the barn on both those fronts.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:43 pm 
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If we engage in an act of war - that means it is war weather our politicians like to call it that or not. An offensive military action by one nation-state against another is a war (however short that duration may be).

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:59 pm 
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Actually, it's not a war unless Congress says it is. That's the problem - "war" has been defined, and this ain't it.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:23 pm 
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It's lame. We declared lame.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:55 pm 
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Screeling wrote:
So wait, RD. Lobbing missles into another sovereign nation is not an act of war, but a military engagement? Is that what we would call it if another country did that to the U.S.?


Point out where in the Constitution it says that the President needs a declaration of war to take any particular action as Commander in Chief.

It doesn't, precisely because the framers knew damn well sometimes you would need to use the military for something that really didn't need a full-up declaration, not to mentiont hat it specifies no format, for, or name for such a declaration. Several of the framers were involved in the government at the time of the Barbary pirates incidents.

The bottom line is that the power of Congress to declare war really doesn't actually serve much purpose in the Constitution. Congress can make other laws that require a declaration of war for certain things to be done with or by the military under their power to make rules for the militia, but even that is of undetermined latitude because Congress cannot use that to usurp the power of the President as Commander in Chief.

An act of war also does not make a war by itself. It can lead to one, but there's a reason "acts of war" are differentiated from wars - to define such acts that take place without an actual war going on.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:44 am 
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Well, that didn't last long. So, we are no longer "protecting civilians". We are taking an active role in the revolution. The government confirmed that we have CIA inside Libya embedded with the rebels, providing tactical training and calling in air strikes along the front lines.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:09 am 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Well, that didn't last long. So, we are no longer "protecting civilians". We are taking an active role in the revolution. The government confirmed that we have CIA inside Libya embedded with the rebels, providing tactical training and calling in air strikes along the front lines.


Link?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:14 am 
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http://ca.news.yahoo.com/u-support-orde ... 3-138.html

Quote:
News that U.S. officials told Reuters that President Barack Obama had authorized covert operations in Libya raised the prospect of greater support for the rebels. Experts assume special forces are on the ground "spotting" targets for air strikes. But public confirmation from Washington may indicate a willingness for greater involvement with the rebel side.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:16 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Point out where in the Constitution it says that the President needs a declaration of war to take any particular action as Commander in Chief.


Let's start with this:

Amendment 10 wrote:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

So it follows that the President does not have the power to do something unless the document specifically grants it to him elsewhere. Now let's look at the only thing the Constitution has to say about the president with regards to the military:

Article 2, Section 2 wrote:
The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States;

Emphasis mine. The conditional qualification here is not accidental. Note that nowhere in the Constitution does it state that the President has power to call the military into the service of the United States -- only that when they have been, he has the power to command them.

So, if not the President, does the Constitution grant the power to call the military into service to anyone? Why, yes:

Article 1, Section 8 wrote:
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

Declaring war is not just a political gesture unless you are unfamiliar with war is.

The OED wrote:
war, n.
1. a. Hostile contention by means of armed forces, carried on between nations, states, or rulers, or between parties in the same nation or state; the employment of armed forces against a foreign power, or against an opposing party in the state.


So in other words, Article 1, Section 8 grants Congress the power to declare the employment of armed forces against, etc. I.e., the power to call the military into service of the United States. Not the President.

And, after all, this particular method of division of power is highly consistent with the rest of the document. It is exactly what we would expect: one branch directs, another executes, and the last reviews.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:39 am 
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I fear you've made a grievous error in your analysis, Stathol.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:50 am 
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Khross wrote:
I fear you've made a grievous error in your analysis, Stathol.


And what has been added that supercedes what stathol posted and that would make his analysis wrong?

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