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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:25 am 
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http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/21/opini ... .html?_r=1

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WHEN Crown Shakur died of starvation, he was 6 weeks old and weighed 3.5 pounds. His vegan parents, who fed him mainly soy milk and apple juice, were convicted in Atlanta recently of murder, involuntary manslaughter and cruelty.


This particular calamity — at least the third such conviction of vegan parents in four years — may be largely due to ignorance. But it should prompt frank discussion about nutrition.

I was once a vegan. But well before I became pregnant, I concluded that a vegan pregnancy was irresponsible. You cannot create and nourish a robust baby merely on foods from plants.

Indigenous cuisines offer clues about what humans, naturally omnivorous, need to survive, reproduce and grow: traditional vegetarian diets, as in India, invariably include dairy and eggs for complete protein, essential fats and vitamins. There are no vegan societies for a simple reason: a vegan diet is not adequate in the long run.

Protein deficiency is one danger of a vegan diet for babies. Nutritionists used to speak of proteins as “first class” (from meat, fish, eggs and milk) and “second class” (from plants), but today this is considered denigrating to vegetarians.

The fact remains, though, that humans prefer animal proteins and fats to cereals and tubers, because they contain all the essential amino acids needed for life in the right ratio. This is not true of plant proteins, which are inferior in quantity and quality — even soy.

A vegan diet may lack vitamin B12, found only in animal foods; usable vitamins A and D, found in meat, fish, eggs and butter; and necessary minerals like calcium and zinc. When babies are deprived of all these nutrients, they will suffer from retarded growth, rickets and nerve damage.

Responsible vegan parents know that breast milk is ideal. It contains many necessary components, including cholesterol (which babies use to make nerve cells) and countless immune and growth factors. When breastfeeding isn’t possible, soy milk and fruit juice, even in seemingly sufficient quantities, are not safe substitutes for a quality infant formula.

Yet even a breast-fed baby is at risk. Studies show that vegan breast milk lacks enough docosahexaenoic acid, or DHA, the omega-3 fat found in fatty fish. It is difficult to overstate the importance of DHA, vital as it is for eye and brain development.

A vegan diet is equally dangerous for weaned babies and toddlers, who need plenty of protein and calcium. Too often, vegans turn to soy, which actually inhibits growth and reduces absorption of protein and minerals. That’s why health officials in Britain, Canada and other countries express caution about soy for babies. (Not here, though — perhaps because our farm policy is so soy-friendly.)

Historically, diet honored tradition: we ate the foods that our mothers, and their mothers, ate. Now, your neighbor or sibling may be a meat-eater or vegetarian, may ferment his foods or eat them raw. This fragmentation of the American menu reflects admirable diversity and tolerance, but food is more important than fashion. Though it’s not politically correct to say so, all diets are not created equal.

An adult who was well-nourished in utero and in infancy may choose to get by on a vegan diet, but babies are built from protein, calcium, cholesterol and fish oil. Children fed only plants will not get the precious things they need to live and grow.

An Op-Ed article on May 21, about veganism, mischaracterized an aspect of traditional vegetarian Indian diets. Generally, these diets are lacto-vegetarian; they do not include eggs.


This reminds me of how Greenlanders wouldn't eat fish because Erik the Red reputedly got sick from fish one time, and they eventually died out as a result. Archaeologists later proved this by looking at their garbage piles.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:12 pm 
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Very sad.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:33 pm 
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Yeah sad. Not sure what the answer is.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:36 pm 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:36 pm 
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*sighs*

I'm not sure I'd charge them. They probably thought it would be healthier. But what a couple of idiots...

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:40 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:


Sadly, this lone tragedy will not do much to help natural selection. The child may have grown up to be a freakin' genius, who also ignored their parent's ethics and loved a good steak. Everyone has a few morons in their family background.

If these "Parents" have more children, it won't even have kept their contributions to the gene pool down.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:44 pm 
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this would have been very sad to hear, in 2007 when the article was printed...

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:52 pm 
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darksiege wrote:
this would have been very sad to hear, in 2007 when the article was printed...


It's still a problem.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:58 pm 
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Talya wrote:
Sadly, this lone tragedy will not do much to help natural selection. The child may have grown up to be a freakin' genius, who also ignored their parent's ethics and loved a good steak. Everyone has a few morons in their family background.

If these "Parents" have more children, it won't even have kept their contributions to the gene pool down.
You've pointed out the biggest problem with natural selection - we allow individual tragedies to make ourselves think that each person is the exception. No, the child couldn't have grown up to be a freakin' genius. Its parents killed it.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:02 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:


The suggestion that the human race is somehow bettered through this tragedy requires so many assumptions about the genetics in question, it's completely ridiculous.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:21 pm 
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Article wrote:
Nutritionists used to speak of proteins as “first class” (from meat, fish, eggs and milk) and “second class” (from plants), but today this is considered denigrating to vegetarians.


That's just hilarious, and completely undermines the entire field.

Political correctness trumping science. "We stopped talking about the health differences between these two things, because it was offensive to people who prefer to be less healthy."

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 4:50 pm 
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Glad they were sentenced.

Maybe that will wake up other Vegans. It's no different than the Christian Scientists who deny their children medical attention.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 5:07 pm 
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Article wrote:
but today this is considered denigrating to vegetarians.


And to many (most of whom are too god damned sensitive) I say... "it is a **** vegetable, not a comatose relative, FFS"

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:52 am 
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Aizle wrote:
Glad they were sentenced.

Maybe that will wake up other Vegans. It's no different than the Christian Scientists who deny their children medical attention.


Screw em. I place this as another reason why universal healthcare is going to fail. Can you mandate levels of nutrition for these kids? Can it be done without the "Cattle rancher corp shill" moniker tossed? If the gov mandates it, does the gov now have to subsudize the people who "can't" afford it? So many ripples from one action yet I have the answer.

Screw these people, leave them alone. They have the proper information at their fingertips yet refuse to use it. Charge them with child abuse/neglect/whatever when its appropriate and leave it at that. Anything more is just going to F things up more.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:48 pm 
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Lex Luthor wrote:
darksiege wrote:
this would have been very sad to hear, in 2007 when the article was printed...


It's still a problem.

Yeah, a huge sweeping problem. There should be a LAW!

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:23 am 
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This reminds me of a story I was told years ago.

Anyone who lived in a British colony was allowed to have citizenship. A number of Sikhs (strict vegans at the time) moved from India to the British Isles and became ill. Their babies had more problems than the adults.

This is what I was told:

Spoiler:
The Sikhs did well in India because there were a lot of insects in their foodstuffs. They became ill after moving because without the insects, there was not enough of the proper nutrients in their food.
There was definitely an underlying sense conveyed that both the diet was foolish and that non-Europeans were filthy when this was told.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:39 pm 
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Huh, interesting SG.

As for this story, 3.5 pounds is less than half my sons birth weight and that child was a month and a half old. This has less to do with veganism and more to do with pure stupidity at best.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:27 am 
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I'm with Dash. Pure stupidity. Why on earth did she not give the child breastmilk or formula? If she disagreed with the formula's artificial ingredients, thats one thing, but to deny the child breastmilk is beyond absurd. Even herbivores breastfeed their babies.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:38 am 
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Would a vegan even be able to produce breast milk?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:01 am 
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Screeling wrote:
Would a vegan even be able to produce breast milk?


Yes.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:20 am 
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It's a qualified yes, though. Breast milk contains many things which either come directly from the mother's diet, or that have to be synthesized from the mother's diet. Either way, your diet impacts the extent to which your body can produce those various compounds in breast milk. Per the article,
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Yet even a breast-fed baby is at risk. Studies show that vegan breast milk lacks enough docosahexaenoic acid, or DHA, the omega-3 fat found in fatty fish. It is difficult to overstate the importance of DHA, vital as it is for eye and brain development.

One example; there are probably others.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:42 am 
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You are absolutely right, Stathol. However, vegan breastmilk is a hell of a lot better for baby than soymilk and apple juice. My son didn't get anything other than breastmilk and formula for the first 3 months. Babies grow so fast and need so many nutrients the first few months that anything other than breastmilk/formula is a bad idea. I can't imagine even giving a baby water at 6 weeks let alone apple juice. I just can't fathom not noticing for 6 weeks either that the baby was failing to thrive.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:01 am 
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LadyKate wrote:
Screeling wrote:
Would a vegan even be able to produce breast milk?


Yes.


Maybe. Not every woman can. A woman with a low milk production ability on a fad vegan diet may be even less likely to produce, or to produce sufficient quantity.

Still, I am under the impression that these people killed their baby through negligence and bias.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:24 am 
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On the plus side, beer is very good for milk production (both quantity and quality.)

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:28 am 
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Talya wrote:
On the plus side, beer is very good for milk production (both quantity and quality.)

Breast-size too.

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