The Glade 4.0

.....well, I'm going to go with the number they stated in the OP. One could make a reasoned argument that it's less, but I'm sure you're going to argue that it's actually zero.

Xequecal:

Out of curiosity, since you think the world is better off without these pregnancies, if they die when they're 3 or 4 after they are born, would that make the world a better place?

X:
You shouldn't be so sure. I'd suggest you concern yourself with what you're arguing before you try to divine what someone else will argue.

If you're going to go with the estimate given by PP, have you considered how they came up with that estimate? How would you say they've prevented abortions? Physically restrained people? Denied them the abortion? Locked them in a room until the baby was born?

How about consistency? For example, the OP states that PP's abortion services account for 3% of their services, yet their own statistics show 12% of the people receiving services from PP receive abortions (as of Feb, 2011).

Even if you ignore the above, you should see the glaring flaw in your logic. You are taking what is presented as truth and not doing any fact-checking of your own, and beyond that, you're guessing about the other half of your argument - since the OP doesn't back up your statement. The statistics show that they've performed more abortions in the period they've "estimated" they've prevented.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

I love the "saved or created" spin that keeps being spun by the cronies. Its right in line with the vapid "hope and change".

I don't feel there should be federal funds for this at all. State issue. Why should the States give their money to the Feds who then skim off the top and hand it back to the States? Leave the funds where they are collected and stop paying a gorram shell game.

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A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill

I wonder how they get these estimates. STD prevention is what exactly, free condoms? Some pamphlets? Same for PP's estimate on preventions. In any case even if you grant those numbers are accurate and meaningful, that's nice and all but doesnt really make much difference about the big issue of abortion.

EDIT: I see others have brought this up, but I'm leaving my post anyway! =p

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“Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general”. - Mark Rippetoe

These statements are not contradictory. It could mean that each of these women had 4 visits per year, only one of which was for abortion.

Even then, it's disingenuous when all non-abortion visits, even those preparing a patient for an abortion, are not included in the abortion services statistic.

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As we don't have the actual numbers of how many visits, costs for each type of visits, etc, it seems rather silly to speculate about how disingenuous it actually the statement actually is. You're operating on the assumption that they are lying, but until you have some actual evidence that they are, its all just speculation. The other three visits may well have been for something else. (Pap Smear, breast cancer screening, etc)

Cherry picking certain individual stats and failing to include others when publishing something purporting to be a comprehensive overview of an organizations operations is always disingenuous.

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In time, this too shall pass.

What evidence do you guys have that Planned Parenthood increases the number of abortions performed?

I just wanted to interject that this thread would have been 1713% more awesome if it had been titled "Planned Parenthood puts out" and then lead the body of the post with "stats about its services."

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

Well, the number of abortions they actually perform is known. The number of abortions they prevent is subjective, dependent on opinion, and can range anywhere from zero if you take the hardcore personal responsibility approach to millions if you start doing things like claiming that the abortions they do perform reduce crime/increase prosperity which results in less abortions in the future.

I just get a little annoyed when so many people post crap like:
- PPs management just loves killing babies and that their #1 priority is to kill as many babies as possible and all their other services are just a cover to let them exist and continue to kill more babies.
- PP is actually an ethnic cleansing program designed to genocide black people.
- Various guilt-by-association fallacies about Margaret Sanger, seriously this is as retarded as claiming one of many German companies are evil because their founder was a Nazi.
- Anyone who supports PPs existence is a monster equivalent to actual child molesters.

Planned Parenthood facilitates abortions, so obviously there are more than there'd be without them.

I think it's worse off for our country since we can support many more people than we do currently, and more people is more workers. But I still want Planned Parenthood around.

Tough cookies. Freedom from legal concequence doesn't free you from the burden of public opinion. You will always be judged by others for your choices. Learn to live with it.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

I never thought I'd see you support people being tried by public opinion. Should we also tell "tough ****" to people accused of and later found not guilty of sex crimes that still have their lives destroyed?

I see you have mastered the fine art of making terrible comparisons.

Please note that in the discussion we were having the phrase "no legal consequence", where as your example turns entirely on there being a real legal consequence.

Are you really saying that you find it strange that I would support individuals having opinions about other individuals and their life choices outside of legal application?

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

The point is that the "court of public opinion" demonstrably makes stupid decisions, and appealing to it is idiotic. While you obviously can't make public opinion go away, the public's opinion on an action really shouldn't have any bearing on whether that action is good or bad.

The fact is that you don't like abortion so you seem to be fine with it if the public demonizes abortion providers to the point of utter absurdity, but at the same time you think it's a travesty if this is done to others. Why is it OK for the public to make up lies about abortion providers but not OK for the public to make up lies about accused sex offenders?

I believe the term you are looking for is hypocrite.

I don't believe Rynar has ever said it's "OK" to "make up lies" about anyone.


There was no value judgement in that statement, just a statement of fact. You two added the value judgement and the ad hominem all on your own.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

And they also provide birth control to millions of women, so "obviously" there'd be more abortions performed without them.

Can we keep Planned Parenthood and lose the FCC? I'd be happy with that.

No, because then in addition to abortions, we'd also have a grown woman's titty on our TV screens.

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Buckle your pants or they might fall down.

I'd just like to stop paying, for both - deal?

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

Incidentally:

http://www.amazon.com/How-Lie-Statistics-Darrell-Huff/dp/0393310728

From the smattering of posts I've looked at, this book seems relevant. You all should read it before you resume arguing about Planned Parenthood's numbers.

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Buckle your pants or they might fall down.

He responded to my post consisting of a list of totally absurd libelous claims with, "doesn't free you from the burden of public opinion." and "You will always be judged by others for your choices." Except, none of the things I listed are "choices" PP has made, they're just bullshit made up to demonize the organization. Thus, he gives his tacit approval to "public opinion" condemning one for completely fabricated offenses. But, apparently it's only OK if the entity being demonized by fabricated offenses is one he disagrees with, it's bad to do so to others.