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 Post subject: Well, this is depressing
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:02 am 
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It’s a simple question with a gut-wrenching answer: In a time of war, is it ever OK to torture an enemy? For decades, the answer was an automatic no. The often-cruel conditions endured by prisoners of war during World War Two spurred the Geneva Conventions, which stipulated an agreed-upon set of standards for handling war victims. By the late 1960s, when any young man could have been drafted to go to Vietnam, the humane treatment of soldiers was at the forefront of many Americans’ concerns.

But now, during a time of two overseas wars, Americans’ opinions on torture seem to have fractured, and largely on generational lines. A new study by the American Red Cross obtained exclusively by The Daily Beast found that a surprising majority—almost 60 percent—of American teenagers thought things like water-boarding or sleep deprivation are sometimes acceptable. More than half also approved of killing captured enemies in cases where the enemy had killed Americans. When asked about the reverse, 41 percent thought it was permissible for American troops to be tortured overseas. In all cases, young people showed themselves to be significantly more in favor of torture than older adults.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:04 am 
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Young people weren't alive in the times of the more brutal wars, so to them torture is more of an abstract topic.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:06 am 
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Humans have never been good at learning from history.


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:07 am 
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Aizle wrote:
Humans have never been good at learning from history.


Except in the fields of engineering and science.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:20 am 
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Morality is a fluid thing. As much as we look down on, say, the Roman Empire for its use of slavery and bloodsport, they were every bit as moral and righteous a people as we are. Their society was no less valid or right than ours is now. Don't fall into the trap of assuming there is absolute right and wrong that we can use to judge others. In a thousand years, I'm sure historians will be declaring the barbarism of our culture.

(Likely this criticism will have something to do with such affronts to decency as "Reality Television," or Justin Bieber.)

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:43 am 
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People by nature are very vengeful. Culturally, we think it's ok to punish people rather than rehabilitate them as though they are sick. Torture fits into this nicely, and it rarely produces good results. Even if it did, those results are just to advance American imperialism for the most part.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:13 am 
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Lex Luthor wrote:
we think it's ok


Even this statement bespeaks a value judgement.

Society determines what is "OK." The point of the OP is that 50 years ago, torture was never "OK." Now it is sometimes "OK." My point is, "Surprise! Values change with time and generations. Deal with it."

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:17 am 
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I think the results speak more to the lack of experience of young people vs older.

When I was a baby, falling down was the worst pain I had ever experienced, and I reacted that way. As an adult, falling down is more embarrasing.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:18 am 
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Hannibal wrote:
I think the results speak more to the lack of experience of young people vs older.

When I was a baby, falling down was the worst pain I had ever experienced, and I reacted that way. As an adult, falling down is more embarrasing.


That will go full circle when you're 75 and fall down on the sidewalk and break a hip.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:40 pm 
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Talya wrote:
Hannibal wrote:
I think the results speak more to the lack of experience of young people vs older.

When I was a baby, falling down was the worst pain I had ever experienced, and I reacted that way. As an adult, falling down is more embarrasing.


That will go full circle when you're 75 and fall down on the sidewalk and break a hip.


But by then ill have the depth of experience to realize the situation for what it is. I'm not against punishing our enemies because I believe in a Machevellian approach. In the case of torture for information, its just unreliable. Maybe it will yield a small fragment of information for the bigger picture, but the effort vs reward isn't worth it imho.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 4:07 pm 
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Talya wrote:
That will go full circle when you're 75 and fall down on the sidewalk and break a hip.
Funny thing, that...

So I was at a movie theater with Mylos (remember him?), I think for Ironman 2, when there's this old gal trying to sit down in one of the seats on the end of the row several rows down. Somehow the conversation led to old people falling and breaking their hip, and Mylos proceeds to explain how it typically happens in the opposite order. Old people do not generally fall and break their hip, but rather they're walking along and their hip breaks, causing them to fall. This is apparently something he learned in one of his anatomy classes back before he switched to a CCNA program.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:59 am 
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Wow, that is depressing.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:33 pm 
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They should drink more milk or period blood.


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