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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:37 pm 
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I think you're wrong.

http://www.joedane.com/featured/how-lon ... ge-county/
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If you’re ever in a situation where you’re not sure if you’re detained or not, ask them if you’re free to go. If they say no, you’re detained.

You’re detained. Now what?
During a detention, you are not free to leave, but it’s not to the same full custody level as an arrest. They can use reasonable force to keep you there (for example, handcuffing you or putting you in the back of a patrol car). During a detention, they may continue to question you, but importantly, they do NOT have to read you your Miranda rights. Do you still have a right to remain silent and not implicate yourself? Absolutely, but during a detention, they don’t have to warn you before questioning you. It’s up to you to remember and exercise your rights. If they ask you questions, you can always decline, saying you’d like to consult with an attorney before answering any questions.


I realize you want things to be a certain way in your nearly lawless, libertarian Old West style world. But this is how they are in reality.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:40 pm 
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Actually, I am really happy that the good folks of Brandon, Mississippi have stood up and with one voice declared, "First Amendment? Not in our town!"

After all, the old saying "I don't like what you have to say but I'll fight to the death for your right to say it" is terribly old-fashioned and should never be uttered again. Especially in Brandon, Mississippi.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:41 pm 
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That is a distinction that officers like to make and some judges accept but there isn't any real distinction between being detained and arrested.

The level of interaction requires RAS such as a Terry stop - you're still technically arrested for that time however most don't do the paperwork for putting you under arrest (if they did they couldn't do this as often as they like).

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:43 pm 
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what about a traffic stop Elmarnieh? You can't just drive off, but you're not being arrested.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:44 pm 
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What about detaining someone as a person of interest?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:46 pm 
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Here ya go:

A seizure or forcible restraint; an exercise of the power to deprive a person of his or her liberty; the taking or keeping of a person in custody by legal authority, especially, in response to a criminal charge.

The purpose of an arrest is to bring the arrestee before a court or otherwise secure the administration of the law. An arrest serves the function of notifying the community that an individual has been accused of a crime and also may admonish and deter the arrested individual from committing other crimes. Arrests can be made on both criminal charges and civil charges, although civil arrest is a drastic measure that is not looked upon with favor by the courts. The federal Constitution imposes limits on both civil and criminal arrests.

An arrest may occur (1) by the touching or putting hands on the arrestee; (2) by any act that indicates an intention to take the arrestee into custody and that subjects the arrestee to the actual control and will of the person making the arrest; or (3) by the consent of the person to be arrested. There is no arrest where there is no restraint, and the restraint must be under real or pretended legal authority. However, the detention of a person need not be accompanied by formal words of arrest or a station house booking to constitute an arrest.

The test used to determine whether an arrest took place in a particular case is objective, and it turns on whether a reasonable person under these circumstances would believe he or she was restrained or free to go. A reasonable person is one who is not guilty of criminal conduct, overly apprehensive, or insensitive to the seriousness of the circumstances. Reasonableness is not determined in light of a defendant's subjective knowledge or fears. The subjective intent of the police is also normally irrelevant to a court's determination whether an arrest occurred, unless the officer makes that intent known. Thus, a defendant's presence at a police station by consent does not become an arrest solely by virtue of an officer's subjective view that the defendant is not free to leave, absent an act indicating an intention to take the defendant into custody.

An arrest constitutes a seizure under the Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, and thus the procedures by which a person is arrested must comply with the protections guaranteed by the Fourth Amendment or the arrest will be invalidated and any evidence seized during the arrest or confessions made after the arrest will typically be suppressed. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that arrests made without a valid arrest warrant based on Probable Cause are presumptively invalid under the Fourth Amendment. Similarly, arrests made pursuant to a warrant that is later ruled defective may also be declared invalid, unless the officer in procuring the warrant and making the arrest acted in Good Faith.

However, warrantless arrests do pass constitutional muster under some circumstances. The Supreme Court has ruled that warrantless arrests can be made when the circumstances make it reasonable to do so. For example, no warrant is required for a felony arrest in a public place, even if the arresting officer had ample time to procure a warrant, so long as the officer possessed probable cause that the suspect committed the crime. Felony arrests in places not open to

the public generally do require a warrant, unless the officer is in Hot Pursuit of a fleeing felon. Warden v. Hayden, 387 U.S. 294, 87 S.Ct. 1642, 18 L.Ed.2d 782 (1967). The Fourth Amendment also allows warrantless arrests for misdemeanors committed in an officer's presence.

The exceptions to the Fourth Amendment's warrant requirement are based on the court's reluctance to unduly impede the job of law enforcement officials. Courts attempt to strike a balance between the practical realities of daily police work and the privacy and freedom interests of the public. Always requiring police officers to take the time to obtain an arrest warrant could result in the destruction of evidence, the disappearance of suspects, or both.

When an officer does seek an arrest warrant, the officer must present evidence to a neutral judge or magistrate sufficient to establish probable cause that a crime has been committed. The Supreme Court has said that probable cause exists when the facts within an officer's knowledge provide a reasonably trustworthy basis for a person of reasonable caution to believe that an offense has been committed or is about to be committed. Courts will deny requests when the warrant fails to describe in particularized detail the person to be arrested. The evidence upon which a warrant is based need not be ultimately admissible at trial, but it cannot be based on knowingly or intentionally false statements, or statements made in reckless disregard of the truth. However, inaccuracies found in a warrant due to ordinary Negligence will not typically jeopardize a warrant's validity.

Police officers need no justification to stop someone on a public street and ask questions, and individuals are completely entitled to refuse to answer any such questions and go about their business. However, the Fourth Amendment prohibits police officers from detaining pedestrians and conducting any kind of search of their clothing without first possessing a reasonable and articulable suspicion that the pedestrians are engaged in criminal activity. Terry v. Ohio, 392U.S. 1, 88 S. Ct. 1868, 21 L. Ed. 889 (1968). Police may not even compel a pedestrian to produce identification without first meeting this standard. Similarly, police may not stop motorists without first having a reasonable and articulable suspicion that the driver has violated a traffic law. If a police officer has satisfied this standard in stopping a motorist, the officer may conduct a search of the vehicle's interior, including the glove compartment, but not the trunk, unless the officer has probable cause to believe that it contains contraband or the instruments for criminal activity.

Investigatory stops or detentions must be limited and temporary, lasting no longer than necessary to carry out the purpose of the stop or detention. An investigatory stop that lasts too long turns into a de facto arrest that must comply with the warrant requirements of the Fourth Amendment. But no bright line exists for determining when an investigatory stop becomes a de facto arrest, as courts are reluctant to hamstring the flexibility and discretion of police officers by placing artificial time limitations on the fluid and dynamic nature of their investigations. Rather, the test is whether the detention is temporary and whether the police acted with reasonable dispatch to quickly confirm or dispel the suspicions that initially induced the investigative detention.

Not all arrests are made by members of law enforcement. Many jurisdictions permit private citizens to make arrests. Popularly known as citizen's arrests, the circumstances under which private citizens may place each other under arrest are normally very limited. All jurisdictions that authorize citizen's arrests prohibit citizens from making arrests for unlawful acts committed outside their presence. Most jurisdictions that authorize citizen's arrests also allow citizens to make arrests only for serious crimes, such as felonies and gross misdemeanors, and then only when the arresting citizen has probable cause to believe the arrestee committed the serious crime. Witnessing the crime in person will normally establish probable cause for making an arrest.

Both private citizens and law enforcement officers may be held liable for the tort of false arrest in civil court. An action for false arrest requires proof that the process used for the arrest was void on its face. In other words, one who confines another, while purporting to act by authority of law which does not in fact exist, makes a false arrest and may be required to pay money damages to the victim. To make out a claim for false arrest, the plaintiff must show that the charges on which he or she was arrested ultimately lacked justification. That is, the plaintiff in a false arrest action must show that the arrest was made without probable cause and for an improper purpose.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:47 pm 
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Traffic stops are "arrests" according to Elmo's definition.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:48 pm 
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Note: Every person in the US has arrest powers when observing the commission of a felony. (So called citizens arrest) and in the beginning this is the same power peace officers (that have morphed then into police and now into leo) had. IE the same authority and responsibility before the law as citizens - equal and all that.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:49 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
That is a distinction that officers like to make and some judges accept but there isn't any real distinction between being detained and arrested.

The level of interaction requires RAS such as a Terry stop - you're still technically arrested for that time however most don't do the paperwork for putting you under arrest (if they did they couldn't do this as often as they like).


No, you're not. The distinction is not one "some judges" like to make; it is established by the Supreme Court. The big distinction between a "detention" and an "arrest" is that you must use due diligence to resolve whatever suspicion caused the detention in as expedient a manner as is reasonably possible; you cannot slow down the procedure in any unnecessary way. For most everyday stops this means 10-15 minutes tops, but those numbers are not hard and fast.

You need probable cause for arrest, but only reasonable suspicion to detain someone. They are not the same thing.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:49 pm 
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Elmo:

Why aren't you a lawyer? Seems it would be right up your alley.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:49 pm 
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Lex Luthor wrote:
Traffic stops are "arrests" according to Elmo's the definition.


Fixed

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:50 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Note: Every person in the US has arrest powers when observing the commission of a felony. (So called citizens arrest) and in the beginning this is the same power peace officers (that have morphed then into police and now into leo) had. IE the same authority and responsibility before the law as citizens - equal and all that.


You can be charged with false imprisonment if you "arrest" someone and it wasn't a felony.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:50 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
That is a distinction that officers like to make and some judges accept but there isn't any real distinction between being detained and arrested.

The level of interaction requires RAS such as a Terry stop - you're still technically arrested for that time however most don't do the paperwork for putting you under arrest (if they did they couldn't do this as often as they like).


No, you're not. The distinction is not one "some judges" like to make; it is established by the Supreme Court. The big distinction between a "detention" and an "arrest" is that you must use due diligence to resolve whatever suspicion caused the detention in as expedient a manner as is reasonably possible; you cannot slow down the procedure in any unnecessary way. For most everyday stops this means 10-15 minutes tops, but those numbers are not hard and fast.

You need probable cause for arrest, but only reasonable suspicion to detain someone. They are not the same thing.


Maybe you could provide the case then?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:51 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Note: Every person in the US has arrest powers when observing the commission of a felony. (So called citizens arrest) and in the beginning this is the same power peace officers (that have morphed then into police and now into leo) had. IE the same authority and responsibility before the law as citizens - equal and all that.


Not true. Citizen's arrest power is up to the states and not all grant it.

On the other hand, some grant it for some misdemeanors as well as felonies.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:52 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Lex Luthor wrote:
Traffic stops are "arrests" according to Elmo's the definition.


Fixed


They aren't though, except in your fairyland libertarian world where there's corner shops selling machine guns and toll booths every half mile for private roads.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:52 pm 
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Lex Luthor wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
Note: Every person in the US has arrest powers when observing the commission of a felony. (So called citizens arrest) and in the beginning this is the same power peace officers (that have morphed then into police and now into leo) had. IE the same authority and responsibility before the law as citizens - equal and all that.


You can be charged with false imprisonment if you "arrest" someone and it wasn't a felony.


And quite a bit more than that - which is why citizens should be careful however the lawful authority to do so still exists. Funny how you can't use it on LEO's committing battery, unlawful restraint, or official oppression though.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:52 pm 
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Lex Luthor wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
Lex Luthor wrote:
Traffic stops are "arrests" according to Elmo's the definition.


Fixed


They aren't though, except in your fairyland libertarian world where there's corner shops selling machine guns and toll booths every half mile for private roads.



Maybe you could provide me a citation or (as I have done) quote a legal dictionary to back up your belief?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:53 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Lex Luthor wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
Note: Every person in the US has arrest powers when observing the commission of a felony. (So called citizens arrest) and in the beginning this is the same power peace officers (that have morphed then into police and now into leo) had. IE the same authority and responsibility before the law as citizens - equal and all that.


You can be charged with false imprisonment if you "arrest" someone and it wasn't a felony.


And quite a bit more than that - which is why citizens should be careful however the lawful authority to do so still exists. Funny how you can't use it on LEO's committing battery, unlawful restraint, or official oppression though.


Police officers are trained and privileged to investigate crimes, while citizens are not.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:54 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
Note: Every person in the US has arrest powers when observing the commission of a felony. (So called citizens arrest) and in the beginning this is the same power peace officers (that have morphed then into police and now into leo) had. IE the same authority and responsibility before the law as citizens - equal and all that.


Not true. Citizen's arrest power is up to the states and not all grant it.

On the other hand, some grant it for some misdemeanors as well as felonies.



Its a power under Common Law which as ruled by the SC supersedes statutory or precedent. That being said, the minimum one can arrest for is observation of a felony - some states may allow for broader powers but I'm not speaking in the scope of any specific state.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:54 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
That is a distinction that officers like to make and some judges accept but there isn't any real distinction between being detained and arrested.

The level of interaction requires RAS such as a Terry stop - you're still technically arrested for that time however most don't do the paperwork for putting you under arrest (if they did they couldn't do this as often as they like).


No, you're not. The distinction is not one "some judges" like to make; it is established by the Supreme Court. The big distinction between a "detention" and an "arrest" is that you must use due diligence to resolve whatever suspicion caused the detention in as expedient a manner as is reasonably possible; you cannot slow down the procedure in any unnecessary way. For most everyday stops this means 10-15 minutes tops, but those numbers are not hard and fast.

You need probable cause for arrest, but only reasonable suspicion to detain someone. They are not the same thing.


Maybe you could provide the case then?


Terry v. Ohio, among others.

Reasonable Suspicion

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In Terry v. Ohio, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that a person can be stopped and briefly detained by a police officer based on a reasonable suspicion of involvement in a crime. If the officer additionally has reasonable suspicion that the person is armed, the officer may perform a search of the person's outer garments for weapons. Such a detention does not violate the Fourth Amendment prohibition on unreasonable searches and seizure, though it must be brief. Reasonable suspicion does not provide grounds for arrest; however, an arrest can be made if facts discovered during the detention provide probable cause that the suspect has committed a crime.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:55 pm 
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Lex Luthor wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:

And quite a bit more than that - which is why citizens should be careful however the lawful authority to do so still exists. Funny how you can't use it on LEO's committing battery, unlawful restraint, or official oppression though.


Police officers are trained and privileged to investigate crimes, while citizens are not.
\

Could you provide me a citation of law which indicates that this is some exclusionary factor in common law arrest?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:56 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Its a power under Common Law which as ruled by the SC supersedes statutory or precedent. That being said, the minimum one can arrest for is observation of a felony - some states may allow for broader powers but I'm not speaking in the scope of any specific state.


Show your work regarding common law.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:58 pm 
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We don't know that the Westboro peeps were 'detained' against their will.

For all we know they went with the police willingly?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:00 pm 
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Wikipedia:

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In New York v. Belton, 453 U.S. 454 (1981), the United States Supreme court ruled that when a police officer has made a lawful arrest of a driver, he may search the passenger area of the vehicle without obtaining a warrant


The implication here is that a traffic stop is not by itself an arrest. There is no better source than the Supreme Court.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:00 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
Its a power under Common Law which as ruled by the SC supersedes statutory or precedent. That being said, the minimum one can arrest for is observation of a felony - some states may allow for broader powers but I'm not speaking in the scope of any specific state.


Show your work regarding common law.



"It [The U.S. Constitution] must be interpreted in the light of Common Law, the principles and history of which were familiarly known to the framers of the Constitution. The language of the Constitution could not be understood without reference to the Common Law." U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649, 18 S. Ct. 456.

"Law of the Land" means "The Common Law." Taylor v. Porter, 4 Hill. 140, 146 (1843) - Justice Bronson; and State v. Simon, 2 Spears 761, 767 (1884) - Justice O'Neal.

The U.S. adopted the Common Laws of England with the Constitution. Coldwell v. Hill, 176 S.E. 383 (1934).

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