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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 10:18 am 
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This is rational skepticism. They have presented no evidence of killing Osama Bin Laden. They have, indeed, made it impossible for them to present evidence of killing Osama Bin Laden.

You, that is those of you choosing to believe the claims, must now take it on faith that the DNA samples being offered for matching did indeed come from that particular body now at the bottom of an ocean somewhere.

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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 10:19 am 
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Isn't there a principle where people tend to project their own behaviors on others? So those who tend to trust are also prone to being trustworthy? And those who see lies everywhere are also those who are most likely to engage in lies themselves?


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 10:19 am 
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Well if he's not dead and he makes more videos, it will be hugely embarrassing.


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 10:21 am 
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TheRiov wrote:
Isn't there a principle where people tend to project their own behaviors on others? So those who tend to trust are also prone to being trustworthy? And those who see lies everywhere are also those who are most likely to engage in lies themselves?
So, you're back to sideways ad hominems? Amusing that ...

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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 10:29 am 
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You have no standing to accuse people of using ad hominims. You're one of the worst offenders Khross. Yours are typically even worse as they devolve into petty namecalling and assertions against peoples intelligence, understanding, grip on the english language, etc.

You have made statements on numerous occasions that cause me to doubt your honesty however.


Last edited by TheRiov on Mon May 02, 2011 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 10:31 am 
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TheRiov wrote:
You have no standing to accuse people of using ad hominims. You're one of the worst offenders Khross.


I don't think so.

Worst offenders:

DE
Rynar


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 10:31 am 
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Khross wrote:
This is rational skepticism. They have presented no evidence of killing Osama Bin Laden. They have, indeed, made it impossible for them to present evidence of killing Osama Bin Laden.


Once again, lack of evidence is not evidence of the contrary.

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You, that is those of you choosing to believe the claims, must now take it on faith that the DNA samples being offered for matching did indeed come from that particular body now at the bottom of an ocean somewhere.


Again - so what? It's theoretically possible that it's a conspiracy, but that's so far fetched that, well, I'm not leaning that direction. Furthermore, the gov is not capable of covering something like this up, with that many people.

Name one single conspiracy that was successfully covered up and never discovered or released. I bet you can't. Relax, I'm joking


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 10:33 am 
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Except, you're not being rational, Arathain ...

It doesn't require a conspiracy to cover anything up at this point. They've made it impossible to prove one way or the other ...

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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 10:37 am 
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I figured that I would find some entertainment by peeking down here to see what the Glade experts of everything had to say about this.

Glad I was right.


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 10:40 am 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
They have his DNA on file. So they can match it.

I'm really curious about this. Where on earth did we get something to match against? I was just assuming they were going to match against his relatives, but I'm not sure that any/enough of them would cooperate with such a request.

Nevermind. Answered my own question.

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/27739824/detail.html

His sister died at Mass. General and they took tissue samples. They matched against that.

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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 10:47 am 
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If you would all stop for a moment and consider that Bin Laden being dead means two things:

1) The War on Terror has triumphed!
2) Obama the Savior succeeded where Dubya failed.

It quickly becomes apparent that reason plays no part in this discourse. If you do not accept the official story given by the federal government, you are simply an unpatriotic malcontent. Proof and evidence do not factor in to the equation.

It may be true that people who won't believe he's dead wouldn't believe it despite any amount of evidence, but other responses in this thread show that those who do believe he died are so desperate to believe that Bin Laden could personally carry out another attack tomorrow and they would refuse to believe he was alive.

So have fun with that, guys. I'm leaving this thread before you **** become contagious.

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Last edited by Corolinth on Mon May 02, 2011 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 10:51 am 
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I have no illusions that the credit for this goes to Obama. Guys in intel, soldiers on the ground did the work, and risked their lives. (Yes, I caught the couple of "I"'s in Obama's statement and they rankled but it was pretty subtle and in the end the President DID make the decision to approve the mission)


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 10:59 am 
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Meh.


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 11:03 am 
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Riudi wrote:
Meh.

x2. I can't say this is even a good thing for the country as it just feels like throwing rocks at a hornet's nest because they stung your kid 10 years ago. (Admittedly it is a terrible analogy I know, but it's how I feel). Each cell in the organization is independent and haven't relied on Bin Laden for anything over the past 10 years.

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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 11:08 am 
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Khross wrote:
Except, you're not being rational, Arathain ...

It doesn't require a conspiracy to cover anything up at this point. They've made it impossible to prove one way or the other ...


So, it's irrational to take the word of the government without evidence to the contrary?

Gotcha. :thumbs:


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 11:10 am 
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Corolinth wrote:
If you would all stop for a moment and consider that Bin Laden being dead means two things:

1) The War on Terror has triumphed!
2) Obama the Savior succeeded where Dubya failed.

It quickly becomes apparent that reason plays no part in this discourse. If you do not accept the official story given by the federal government, you are simply an unpatriotic malcontent. Proof and evidence do not factor in to the equation.

It may be true that people who won't believe he's dead wouldn't believe it despite any amount of evidence, but other responses in this thread show that those who do believe he died are so desperate to believe that Bin Laden could personally carry out another attack tomorrow and they would refuse to believe he was alive.

So have fun with that, guys. I'm leaving this thread before you **** become contagious.


I forget what it's called when some dude steps into a thread, doesn't contribute anything, simply stirs up some ****, insults everyone, and then flees cackling.


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 11:12 am 
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You know, the assertion that because politicians, or because Obama in particular, lie about some things, does not prove that they lied about this unless one claims that they always lie. Such an assertion would be beyond absurd. No one lies all the time.

Second, the assertion that the government/Obama is lying is a positive assertion and requires proof, just as the assertion that they did indeed kill him requires proof. Saying you do not believe the government's claim without further evidence is one thing, as is having suspicion or skepticism of the claim. Saying that they are definitely lying simply because they have "destroyed the evidence", an action for which there are perfectly logical explainations, or becasue it's convenient or any of the other reasons simply does not come up to the level of proof needed to buy a claim that this is definitely a lie.

Furthermore, there really is no percentage in claiming he was killed without being sure it is true:

1) As Taly has pointed out, there's a very good chance any fakery would be exposed
2) If he is still alive it's not hard to trot him out on a video and expose the lie.
3) If he was already killed by us years ago, there's no reason the Bush administration would have foregone the positive reaction from it at the time, certainly not allowing the 2008 election to pass without announcing it.
4) Obama could have done this, and just now released the information, but then the only chicanery going on would be in regard to when he was killed, not whether we killed him. Distasteful, but not quite the same thing as lying about him being killed, period.
5) If he died to some other cause in the past, we can't know that someone doesn't know where the body is, and couldn't trot it out either.

There's room for healthy skepticism, but I haven't seen any here yet; I've seen conspiracy theory assertions. I can completely understand not necessarily believing it is true, but stating positively that it isn't as anything other than your personal assessment of the evidence available right now is not supportable.

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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 11:35 am 
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CNN wrote:
A DNA match confirms Osama bin Laden was killed in a U.S. operation, a senior administration official told CNN Monday.

There are also photographs of the body with a gunshot wound to the side of the head that shows an individual who is not unrecognizable as bin Laden, a U.S. government official said.

No decision has yet been made on whether to release the photographs and if so, when and how.


Interesting:

Quote:
A U.S. government official told CNN the operation that killed the founder and leader of al Qaeda was designed to do just that, not to take him alive. But another senior U.S. official told CNN the operation included instructions to arrest bin Laden alive if he surrendered -- however, no one involved expected that he would surrender.


And, we have evidence at least that the raid took place (and LOL at this poor bastard):

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(CNN) -- As U.S. forces in Pakistan swooped in on Osama bin Laden on Sunday, at least one Twitter user was unknowingly reporting details of the raid.

Some of the first public accounts of the military operation that killed the terrorist leader came in the form of tweets from Sohaib Athar, an IT consultant in Abbottabad, the city where bin Laden was found.

But the significance of Athar's posts wouldn't be clear until hours later when users of the social-networking site -- and the rest of the world -- learned of President Barack Obama's plans for a rare, late-night address to announce that bin Laden had been killed.

The first clue from Athar came after 4 p.m. ET Sunday (after midnight in Pakistan).

"Helicopter hovering above Abbottabad at 1AM (is a rare event)," he wrote.

His first reaction? Annoyance at the noise.

"Go away helicopter - before I take out my giant swatter :-/," he wrote.

But soon, it was clear that more was going on than a random flyover. He reported seeing an airplane fly overhead. And he worried, as most anyone would, that terrorism might be involved.

"A huge window shaking bang here in Abbottabad Cantt. I hope its not the start of something nasty :-S," Athar wrote.

He posted an incorrect local media report that a helicopter had crashed, or been shot down (perhaps jokingly, calling it a UFO) and gave details of military cordoning off areas of the city.

Then, about eight hours after his first tweet, Athar acknowledged that he'd heard what happened.

"I guess I should unsubscribe from the #abbottabad search on twitter before it kills my machine," he wrote. "Leave Abbottabad alone, Osama and Obama... ."

According to what appears to be Athar's Facebook profile (it also lists him as a consultant and links to a personal website with the same name as his Twitter profile), he graduated from the University of the Punjab in Lahore, Pakistan, in 2001.

He also earned an MBA from Preston University, an online school headquartered in the United States, it says. His public profile page lists his religious views as "Myopic" and political views as "Anarchistic."

By early Monday in the United States, the online deluge for the man who also runs a small coffee shop was just beginning. As his tweets were discovered, the online messages and media requests began.

"Uh oh," Athar wrote. "(N)ow I'm the guy who liveblogged the Osama raid without knowing it."

According to the Twitter statistics tool TwitterCounter, Athar had 751 followers on Saturday. By Monday morning, he had more than 32,000.

CNN and other media outlets reached out to him for interviews. But, by Monday morning U.S. time, he seemed to only want sleep.

"I am sorry but I am overwhelmed with emails/phones/chat requests at the moment -- I will definitely try to answer your questions, probably as a blog post -- as soon as I can," he wrote in an e-mail response to a CNN interview request. "I had been working all night and didn't anticipate that I'd need to stay awake till noon too, so it is hard to talk over phone/voice chat."

And a final tweet Monday morning:

"Bin Laden is dead. I didn't kill him. Please let me sleep now."


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 11:44 am 
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Skepticism is exactly where I stand on this. Even if the reports are true and this went down exactly as stated, I still think the whole thing smells of a gigantic media distraction.

IF OBL was still alive, and IF our Seals killed him in the method described, who has anything to gain from this ? OBL, IF he was even still alive, and healthy enough to function, hasn't been involved actively in AQ's activities since the early 2000s' according to our own intelligence reports. Why put all this effort and risk American lives to kill him? Why risk raising the ire of every Islamic extremist on the planet?

I find it disingenuous that many of you who criticized Gitmo and the torture/mistreatment of detainees without any kind of trial would applaud what amounts to the assassination of a powerless figurehead who has lived in exile for the last 10 years. The US Military killing of OBL (if it did indeed happen) will not give us any tactical advantage in the war on terrorism, and in fact will probably serve as motivation for his admirers to step up attacks on the west.

To me, this all reeks of political opportunism, and the timing, with Obama's popularity being at an time low. Gas is $5 a gallon and not going down any time soon. He has been slowly losing favor with the media, and is even losing the support of his staunchest supporters in the entertainment industry. He needed a boost, to right the ship, so to say.

Do I believe that this (killing OBL) happened? It's certainly possible... although I remain skeptical, and probably always will be. Taly's argument about the governemnt being incapable of pulling this off without being caught is really the only 'evidence' you can accept. Everything else (inlcuding DNA) is questionable in my mind.

Do I question the motivation to expend resources and risk lives in persuing this? Absolutely.

The only person with anything to gain is the President and his re-election campaign. It gets the crumbling economy, and high gas prices out of the headlines...

To qualify myself a bit here. I was on active duty on Sept 11, 2001. I have as much, if not more reason to despise this bastard (OBL) as anyone. In fact, I think it's safe to say that were I given the opportunity, I might have been a willing participant in his take down. But I would by lying if I said that my motivations to do that are selfish, and probably not in the best interest of the country. You can put a label on my skepticism if you want, but my concience is clear.


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 11:54 am 
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Why would Obama give a **** about his poll numbers now? If it were about timing then why not wait until just before the election? or just after forcing through health care? or after choking us with the bail-out? or after **** up the oil-spill clean-up? or right before the dem's got swept in the elections? or... (insert other admin-led **** here>

The meaningless timing of this is a strong indication to me that it's legit.

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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 11:57 am 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
I forget what it's called when some dude steps into a thread, doesn't contribute anything, simply stirs up some ****, insults everyone, and then flees cackling.

Well, when you think of it, be sure to tell us. Because I'd hate to be called whatever that is.

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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 12:01 pm 
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I don't question at all the idea that Osama is now dead because Obama needed points with the people. I do question the ability for the USA to fake it completely. Given things like that guy posting twitter updates about the raid, and [hopefully] a photo release eventually, I just have a tough time thinking conspiracy.

Anyway, it doesn't matter because none of us can prove anything either way. Arguing about it is retarded.


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 12:04 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
Why would Obama give a **** about his poll numbers now? If it were about timing then why not wait until just before the election? or just after forcing through health care? or after choking us with the bail-out? or after **** up the oil-spill clean-up? or right before the dem's got swept in the elections? or... (insert other admin-led **** here>

The meaningless timing of this is a strong indication to me that it's legit.


Thank you for demonstrating it's effectiveness for me.

I think I eluded to this, but allow me to clarify.

His popularity is at an all time low. How is this not a good time to reverse that trend?

By doing it now, he could gain some popularity without the suspicion of being 'close' to the election.

This was the perfect time to gain a little political capitol, and get some momentum going in the opposite direction.


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 12:05 pm 
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Midgen:

The timeline and how this was worked out has been released. They tracked one of his couriers, and they said when and how. It's arguable that it could have been delayed more, or bumped up more, but it's not like they've been tracking him for 3 years and just now decided to take him out.

Regarding the value versus the cost of getting him: well, that's a judgement call. I disagree. It has value, even if it is primarily political. We're trying to exit from Afghanistan, and this provides a "cleaner" way to do it. Remember, that's why we went to Afghanistan in the first place. The American people demand it, the world respects it, and even if it provides little military benefit, politics is important. It's also a deterence. His ability to elude us was an encouragement to anti-US fighters.


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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 12:09 pm 
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Would any of you be opposed to Osama's death being used as reasoning for finally withdrawing from Afghanistan in large numbers? Would it matter that his death didn't actually affect anything other than perception?


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