The Glade 4.0

"Turn the lights down, the party just got wilder."
It is currently Sun Nov 24, 2024 4:24 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 32 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 10:04 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:59 pm
Posts: 9412
CNN wrote:
(CNN) -- With a series of blasts that briefly illuminated the night sky like lightning, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers began blowing up a Mississippi River levee overnight, flooding about 200 square miles of rich farmland in an effort to bring down historic river levels and spare the city of Cairo, Illinois and other communities.

The controversial decision to breach the Birds Point-New Madrid levee appeared to be working, said Col. Vernie Reichling, commander of the Corps' Memphis district.

The Ohio River at Cairo peaked at 61.72 feet just before the blast late Monday -- the highest level on record, according to the National Weather Service. By 6 a.m. Tuesday, it had fallen to 60.62 feet, according to river gauge readings provided by the Corps. Even that still exceeds the previous record of 59.5 feet set in 1937, according to Weather Service records.

The breach could cause river levels to fall by three to four feet over the next few days, according to Maj. Gen. Michael Walsh, commander of the Corps' Mississippi River Valley Division.

Without an intentional breach, authorities had warned of massive flooding that could wipe out the city of Cairo, which sits at the confluence of the Ohio and Mississippi rivers. Cairo's mayor had already ordered the city's 2,800 residents to evacuate.
Missouri officials took the Corps to court over the plan, questioning the agency's authority to intentionally breach the levee. The state argued the flood waters would deposit silt on the some 130,000 acres of farmland that Missouri Gov. Jay Nixon described as "literally the most productive part of our continent."

The silt, he said, would take years to clear, causing long-lasting damage.

The U.S. Supreme Court declined to intervene in the case on Sunday, clearing the way for Walsh's decision to blow the levee.
Nixon estimated it will take tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars to recover from the intentional flooding.
Walsh said the fate of Cairo was just one of many factors in his decision, saying he hoped the move would alleviate issues throughout the Mississippi River system. Water levels and flooding have hit record highs in many spots, putting severe strains on systems meant to prevent uncontrolled floods and the resulting loss of life and property.

"Nobody has seen this type of water in the system," he said. "This is unprecedented."

He called the decision to inundate the farmland and about 100 homes "heart-wrenching."

"I've been involved with flooding for 10 years and it takes a long time to recover from something like this," he said.
The initial series of blasts happened late Monday. Engineers then set the second charges overnight and planned to detonate them early Tuesday. A third series of detonations will follow, according to the Corps.

The governors of Illinois and Missouri said authorities in both states are prepared for the blast and subsequent flooding, according to prepared statements.

"I urge Missourians to continue to cooperate fully with state, county and local law enforcement, as they have at every stage of this process," Nixon said. "Together, we will ensure that Missouri families stay safe in the coming days. And together, we will recover and rebuild."

A statement released by Quinn's office called the decision to breach the levee "an important step to ensure public safety as we respond to this crisis."

Even as the river was falling, Walsh did not rule out similar moves elsewhere along the Mississippi and its tributaries, saying the levee system is already under unprecedented pressure and warning water levels could rise again.

"This doesn't end this historic flood," he said.

Thoughts? I just looked up Cairo, IL, and apparently its population is 2,831 as of last year's census.

_________________
"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 10:07 am 
Offline
Rihannsu Commander

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:31 am
Posts: 4709
Location: Cincinnati OH
I thought flooding was GOOD for farmland generally?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 10:10 am 
Offline
pbp Hack
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:45 pm
Posts: 7585
"Some Engineer thought it was a good idea" is one of my favorite sayings to explain weird ideas.

_________________
I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 10:13 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:20 am
Posts: 1037
TheRiov wrote:
I thought flooding was GOOD for farmland generally?


Right. Wouldn't the silt have an awesome long-term effect on farming on the region?

_________________
Image Image Image Image Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 10:16 am 
Offline
The Dancing Cat
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:21 pm
Posts: 9354
Location: Ohio
TheRiov wrote:
I thought flooding was GOOD for farmland generally?

This. I thought silt deposits were among the most fertile lands you could ask for.

That aside I am good with the decision. How much more damage would have been incurred to lives and property if the city of Cairo were wiped off the map? Not to mention there are other cities further downstream that would have been impacted.

_________________
Quote:
In comic strips the person on the left always speaks first. - George Carlin


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 10:24 am 
Offline
Rihannsu Commander

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:31 am
Posts: 4709
Location: Cincinnati OH
I understand they would lose much of this years crop. I'm also certain its insured or would be paid by the ACoE

The whole reason that area is good farmland in the first place is because its a floodplane.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 10:45 am 
Offline
adorabalicious
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:54 am
Posts: 5094
Longterm benefits.

Shortterm drowning and burying of crops as well as destruction of all pasture, and structures.

Also being forced out of your home isn't so cool.

This is what the state's militia is for: saying hell no.

_________________
"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 10:46 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:03 am
Posts: 4922
Think about all that awesome free fertilizer the farmers get.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 10:53 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:59 pm
Posts: 9412
Cairo's already been evacuated. There's no risk to life.

As for property damage -- I'm not sure that once the soil is already good, more flooding is generally helpful, particularly since the area is already actively being farmed -- that means that money's been invested in soil enrichment and fertilization, in addition to the planting. And that investment is just as likely to wash away in the floods as it is to be enriched further, perhaps moreso. Now tally up all the destroyed farm equipment and structures, as well.

From what I can tell, Cairo is a town at the end of a long decline. It was over 5 times its current size in the 20's when the river and railway were still a noteworthy trade routes. It's lost 800 residents in the last decade. It's a ghost town in the making, from what I can tell.

Ah, I see. Looking further at the demographics, it also appears to be extremely poor, and 60% black.

The productive Missouri farmland is a casualty to prevent another New Orleans, because we can't have Obama hating poor black Illinoisians.

_________________
"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 11:03 am 
Offline
Rihannsu Commander

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:31 am
Posts: 4709
Location: Cincinnati OH
Wait... now who's playing the race card?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 11:09 am 
Offline
The Dancing Cat
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:21 pm
Posts: 9354
Location: Ohio
So the argument is... "Oh my God there is dirt on my dirt!!" versus "****, there goes the family home, pictures, heirlooms and keepsakes that will need to be paid for by Federal Flood Insurance!"

Hmmm... As the person who has to foot the bill either way I'm gonna say use my tax money to pay for removing the dirt from the dirt.

_________________
Quote:
In comic strips the person on the left always speaks first. - George Carlin


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 11:12 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:22 pm
Posts: 5716
Regular flooding is very good for the fertility of an area. However, for obvious reasons, it's not so good for farming (crap, just lost all my crops again).

This type of flooding is not as good for a couple of reasons. First, the sediment is not widely distributed over the entire river floodplain, it's being channeled through a levee breach. So, instead of a small amount of sediment depth over a large area, you'll have uneven deposition (probably several feet in some areas) and scour in others.

Crops and homes have value, so there will be loss, and some repair to deal with the sediment and scour.

That said, it's a reasonably easy numbers game for the Corps. They are all about the risk assessments. Someone ran the numbers and decided that flooding here is less costly than flooding of the towns.

It makes sense. Hell, for all I know, this was a design feature of the levee. Every levee I design has a relief valve built in. If it overtops, I want it to overtop HERE. If it fails (or needs to be breached), it needs to fail HERE.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 11:15 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:22 pm
Posts: 5716
Kaffis Mark V wrote:
From what I can tell, Cairo is a town at the end of a long decline. It was over 5 times its current size in the 20's when the river and railway were still a noteworthy trade routes. It's lost 800 residents in the last decade. It's a ghost town in the making, from what I can tell.


Never ask an engineer to make these types of judgement calls. That's what politicians are for. Engineer: Flooding here will cost this much. Flooding over here will cost this much. Breach it.

You're talking about value outside of actual, current, damage assessments for property lost. You're talking about future potential and stuff.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 11:19 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:59 pm
Posts: 9412
I don't disagree, Arathain. What bothers me is, it appears the Army Corps of Engineers made this call against that advice of the politicians quoted, with no reference to support from other politicians.

We've got the Governor of MO saying "this was a bad move, that was valuable, productive farmland." We don't have anybody but the head Engineer saying "save the town." At least, not in the articles I read.

That said, I ponder the entire notion of politicians deciding what to save from Acts of God and go, "hmm."

_________________
"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 11:25 am 
Offline
Rihannsu Commander

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:31 am
Posts: 4709
Location: Cincinnati OH
so you're saying you'd RATHER it was a political decision than a decision by experts?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 11:26 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:22 pm
Posts: 5716
Kaffis Mark V wrote:
I don't disagree, Arathain. What bothers me is, it appears the Army Corps of Engineers made this call against that advice of the politicians quoted, with no reference to support from other politicians.


They work for a different set of politicians.

Some levees are owned and operated by the USACE, some are owned and operated by local jurisdictions. ALL are under the jurisdiction of the USACE, since the USACE has been tasked by Congress to control and preside over "Waters of the US". So even if the levees are owned by local jurisdictions, the ultimate emergency authority over those projects belongs to the Corps (and this was agreed to at the time of levee construction, and is a condition of continued federal funding).

So, the politicians in question have already deferred this decision to the Corps. The best they can do is appeal to the politicians who preside over the Corps.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 11:29 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:22 pm
Posts: 5716
TheRiov wrote:
so you're saying you'd RATHER it was a political decision than a decision by experts?


Who, me? ABSOLUTELY. I will make some recommendations for general guidelines and rules, politicians can approve or amend, then I'll do my work based on the criteria. The last thing I need to do is get bogged down in political nonsense during an emergency.

Set the criteria BEFOREHAND, and we'll work within those guidelines. What do we save? Most # of residences? Most # of $$? Most # of acres? Most # of black people? You guys answer that question, then I'll do my job accordingly.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 11:34 am 
Offline
The Dancing Cat
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:21 pm
Posts: 9354
Location: Ohio
Kaffis Mark V wrote:
I don't disagree, Arathain. What bothers me is, it appears the Army Corps of Engineers made this call against that advice of the politicians quoted, with no reference to support from other politicians.

We've got the Governor of MO saying "this was a bad move, that was valuable, productive farmland." We don't have anybody but the head Engineer saying "save the town." At least, not in the articles I read.

That said, I ponder the entire notion of politicians deciding what to save from Acts of God and go, "hmm."

Quote:
For the second time in two weeks, Gov. Pat Quinn visited southern Illinois' flood zone. This time, however, Quinn put his boots on the ground in Cairo, the town threatened to be overrun with flood waters from both the Mississippi and Ohio rivers.

The governor took some criticism last week for visiting Marion, 50 miles north of Cairo, instead of the flood-stricken city.

During his Monday trip to Cairo, Quinn announced the deployment of additional 100 National Guardsmen to help fill new sandbags in the battle to fight the flooding in towns along the rising Ohio River. That brings the total up to 485 guardsmen, Quinn said.

“I think with God’s help we will get through this crisis,” Quinn said. “And I think it is important to realize that our state government, we will spend whatever necessary to fight this flood.”


http://illinois.statehousenewsonline.co ... ugh-flood/

_________________
Quote:
In comic strips the person on the left always speaks first. - George Carlin


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 12:13 pm 
Offline
Has a plan
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:51 pm
Posts: 1584
Note to self don't live in a flood plain l
or
Don't ***** when it floods

_________________
A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 12:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:59 pm
Posts: 9412
Another tidbit to toss into the discussion:

Estimates I've seen on the amount of arable land necessary to support a person's dietary needs in a balanced Western diet hover around one and a quarter acres. So this 130,000 acres of farmland feeds, at a guess, 100,000 people. Even if we're only wiping out one year's worth of crops, and we can rebuild all the structures and make it agriculturally ready again by next year's planting season, that's 100,000 people somewhere in the world who don't get the food they would have had.

Now, I'm not a blind idealist. I realize that there's a limit to the portability of that food. If you try to ship it to Africa, most of that is going to be lost in transit as it goes bad. But we've got plenty of demand for food here in the States. The economic cost is also going to include the increased cost of foodstuffs in some radius around the affected land. The bigger the radius, obviously, the less the marginal cost will bump up, but the more people will be affected.

_________________
"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 1:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:22 pm
Posts: 5716
Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Another tidbit to toss into the discussion:

Estimates I've seen on the amount of arable land necessary to support a person's dietary needs in a balanced Western diet hover around one and a quarter acres. So this 130,000 acres of farmland feeds, at a guess, 100,000 people. Even if we're only wiping out one year's worth of crops, and we can rebuild all the structures and make it agriculturally ready again by next year's planting season, that's 100,000 people somewhere in the world who don't get the food they would have had.

Now, I'm not a blind idealist. I realize that there's a limit to the portability of that food. If you try to ship it to Africa, most of that is going to be lost in transit as it goes bad. But we've got plenty of demand for food here in the States. The economic cost is also going to include the increased cost of foodstuffs in some radius around the affected land. The bigger the radius, obviously, the less the marginal cost will bump up, but the more people will be affected.


Bear in mind that of this 130,000 acres, not all of it is active farmland, but assuming it was, that would be approximately one hundredth of one percent of the US farm area. It is also unlikely that the active acreage was all dedicated to human food production (think ethanol, etc). And it won't be a total loss, either.

So in the overall scheme of things, it's not likely to make very many people hungry.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 1:34 pm 
Offline
The Dancing Cat
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:21 pm
Posts: 9354
Location: Ohio
Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Another tidbit to toss into the discussion:

Estimates I've seen on the amount of arable land necessary to support a person's dietary needs in a balanced Western diet hover around one and a quarter acres. So this 130,000 acres of farmland feeds, at a guess, 100,000 people. Even if we're only wiping out one year's worth of crops, and we can rebuild all the structures and make it agriculturally ready again by next year's planting season, that's 100,000 people somewhere in the world who don't get the food they would have had.

Now, I'm not a blind idealist. I realize that there's a limit to the portability of that food. If you try to ship it to Africa, most of that is going to be lost in transit as it goes bad. But we've got plenty of demand for food here in the States. The economic cost is also going to include the increased cost of foodstuffs in some radius around the affected land. The bigger the radius, obviously, the less the marginal cost will bump up, but the more people will be affected.

A very convincing argument which I hadn't considered.

_________________
Quote:
In comic strips the person on the left always speaks first. - George Carlin


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 1:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:03 am
Posts: 4922
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Another tidbit to toss into the discussion:

Estimates I've seen on the amount of arable land necessary to support a person's dietary needs in a balanced Western diet hover around one and a quarter acres. So this 130,000 acres of farmland feeds, at a guess, 100,000 people. Even if we're only wiping out one year's worth of crops, and we can rebuild all the structures and make it agriculturally ready again by next year's planting season, that's 100,000 people somewhere in the world who don't get the food they would have had.

Now, I'm not a blind idealist. I realize that there's a limit to the portability of that food. If you try to ship it to Africa, most of that is going to be lost in transit as it goes bad. But we've got plenty of demand for food here in the States. The economic cost is also going to include the increased cost of foodstuffs in some radius around the affected land. The bigger the radius, obviously, the less the marginal cost will bump up, but the more people will be affected.


Bear in mind that of this 130,000 acres, not all of it is active farmland, but assuming it was, that would be approximately one hundredth of one percent of the US farm area. It is also unlikely that the active acreage was all dedicated to human food production (think ethanol, etc). And it won't be a total loss, either.

So in the overall scheme of things, it's not likely to make very many people hungry.


Food can also be imported from other countries, not to mention stockpiles. A tiny flood like this wouldn't make a dent on the global scale.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 2:08 pm 
Offline
Mountain Man
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:15 pm
Posts: 3374
Just as an aside, I've also been kind of laughing at the complaints about flooding of farmland, etc. - Egyptians did this for thousands of years (although not on a schedule that already has winter wheat on the ground, etc.).

I wonder if part of the problem, too, is that flood water is no longer nice and clean the way the Nile might have been. Probably a lot of toxic crap, heavy metals, etc. in the silt that's gonna get laid down by this.

But overall, short-term vs. long-term says, for me, blow it!

_________________
This cold and dark tormented hell
Is all I`ll ever know
So when you get to heaven
May the devil be the judge


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 2:11 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:59 pm
Posts: 9412
Aethien wrote:
I wonder if part of the problem, too, is that flood water is no longer nice and clean the way the Nile might have been. Probably a lot of toxic crap, heavy metals, etc. in the silt that's gonna get laid down by this.

But overall, short-term vs. long-term says, for me, blow it!

Oh, right. I forgot to include that bit about the river water not being all nice and pristine like it used to when floodplains were coveted farmland.

As far as long-term; yeah, that's why I included some of the census statistics I did about the town. Long-term, the tiny town is already doomed and I'd rather the money just go to helping families relocate to communities with a better outlook.

_________________
"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 32 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 315 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group