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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 3:08 pm 
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The White House is now saying that OBL was not armed when he was killed...

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/ ... TE=DEFAULT


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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 3:24 pm 
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That also says it's one to the head and one to the chest, instead of two to the head like I'd seen previously reported. That's pretty standard, isn't it? Gives a little more credit to the idea of being killed during a firefight and not executed afterwards.


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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 3:59 pm 
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SOP is two to the chest one to the head.

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AP - Osama bin Laden was unarmed when he was confronted by U.S. commandos at his Pakistani hideout but tried to resist the assault, the White House said Tuesday as new details emerged about the audacious raid that killed the world's most wanted terrorist.


"Stop resisting!"BAMBAM"Stop Resisting!"BAM

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 4:35 pm 
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If you want to be apprehended with lots of care, then don't knock down skyscrapers with people in them.


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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 6:55 pm 
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This was the first thing I thought of when I heard the news, but forgot what episode it was from. It's a funny coincidence that they made it just a couple months ago. :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 7:28 pm 
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Apparently an intelligence goldmine in the compound as well.

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Last edited by Lenas on Tue May 03, 2011 7:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
fixed link


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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 8:21 pm 
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Yes, well, we'll see if all that amounted to something good. Or, more likely, government intel agents will see, and we'll speculate.


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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 8:26 pm 
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but .. its all fake intelligence. The president just made it up to boost his ratings... right?


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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 8:53 pm 
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I think it is awesome that even people Like Sean Hannity are giving the President his kudos on this.

/poke hornets nest

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 9:43 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Yes, well, we'll see if all that amounted to something good. Or, more likely, government intel agents will see, and we'll speculate.


Most likely. A large part of effective use of intelligence is not just acting on it, but not letting the other side know that's what you're acting on, or not letting them know what you know.

In this case, though, that may be less of a concern since they'll know damn well we got his databases.

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 10:37 pm 
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TheRiov wrote:
but .. its all fake intelligence. The president just made it up to boost his ratings... right?
Actually, who knows about the intelligence from the compound raided. No one is disputing that we sent a Seal Team into Abbattobad ...

No one is doubting they killed people there. People are simply saying the powers that be have made it impossible to substantiate the death of Osama Bin Laden, because they made parallel verification impossible. But, you're too busy trying to say people are saying things they didn't to understand what they said.

See Corolinth's thread if you need more information on why you're arguments are invalid. Also, you should invest in his fuel source, since you're so willing to believe one thing without parallel verification, while bashing the religious beliefs of several posters to make yourself seem more intelligent.

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 7:57 am 
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The latest reports indicate the the US Government will not be releasing the photos because they are "too gorey".

No joke.

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 8:19 am 
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Obama troll is obvious.

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 8:42 am 
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Rynar wrote:
The latest reports indicate the the US Government will not be releasing the photos because they are "too gorey".

No joke.


I believe that is wise. I can't imagine that a picture that is close up enough to recognize his face, with a headshot wound, would do anything other than help rally his supporters.


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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 8:53 am 
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Khross wrote:
People are simply saying the powers that be have made it impossible to substantiate the death of Osama Bin Laden.



It was impossible to substantiate to begin with. Or more correctly, the only people it would ever be substantiated for already have it substantiated to their satisfaction. Even if they kept the body, the body, the DNA evidence, the photographs, all the "proof" of the mission details would never be released beyond the limited circle of the few thousand people involved in this. These people already have the proof they need, they have no further reason to keep the body. It's not like if they had kept it, any other independant third parties would ever have been given access. So all of this outrage is moot.

On the other side of the coin, if this is a lie, it is impossible to prevent absolute proof of that lie from coming out, and coming out soon. As stated, there would be hundreds, probably thousands of people (military personal, intelligence personel, politicians, pakistani nationals, and even survivors living in the compound that was attacked) complicit in the lie, far too many to avoid the inevitable leaks that would happen if this is just an fabrication. So if this is a lie, we'll find out about it. If it's true, it will turn into another crackpot conspiracy and 30 years from now, a few people will still be saying "Osama is alive!" (or "He was already dead!") But the very fact that the US claims have not been disproven will eventually be evidence enough to be reasonably sure it was true.

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 9:08 am 
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His daughter (in Pakistani custody) said today that:
A) She was there
B) Osama was there
C) Osama was taken alive
D) The Seals executed him on the spot

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 9:18 am 
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Khross wrote:
TheRiov wrote:
but .. its all fake intelligence. The president just made it up to boost his ratings... right?
Actually, who knows about the intelligence from the compound raided. No one is disputing that we sent a Seal Team into Abbattobad ...

No one is doubting they killed people there. People are simply saying the powers that be have made it impossible to substantiate the death of Osama Bin Laden, because they made parallel verification impossible. But, you're too busy trying to say people are saying things they didn't to understand what they said.

See Corolinth's thread if you need more information on why you're arguments are invalid. Also, you should invest in his fuel source, since you're so willing to believe one thing without parallel verification, while bashing the religious beliefs of several posters to make yourself seem more intelligent.

Khross wrote:
It didn't happen.


You officially win the "WORLDS LARGEST HYPOCRITE" award. You are the individual who spends much of your time belittling other posters, criticizing their command of the English language to make yourself seem more intelligent.

And I believe that I stated (though you may have misunderstood) that belief in the resurrection requires a leap of faith.

(by the way, Khross, that should be "YOUR" not "YOU'RE" in your last paragraph. Keep bashing though. This thread has been funny as hell for me. It is like watching the Emperor's New Clothes. You're being revealed for the paranoid, hypocritical windbag you are. And yes, I'm delving into ad hominim attacks for once just because I can, because this thread is final proof that you twist, and wiggle and try to squirm out of the things you say accusing people of misunderstanding you or lacking the intelligence to comprehend basic language. Finally you said something that wasn't so obfuscated that it was hard to pick apart and so, I'm taking my shot. You made a call. You blatently stated that something didn't happen and are backtracking as some evidence does come in trying to say that's not what you said.

Admit you're trying to twist out of what you said or be revealed as what you really are.
(Hows that private island going? Or your plans to move to... the Czech republic (?) was it?)

BTW since you're the one making the positive assertion that you were going to do these things lets see some proof.


Last edited by TheRiov on Wed May 04, 2011 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 9:24 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
His daughter (in Pakistani custody) said today that:
A) She was there
B) Osama was there
C) Osama was taken alive
D) The Seals executed him on the spot


Who didn't see that (or a variation of) coming?

Lets take this moment to remember that Obama said this mission was done at his direction. He owned the operation, so he owned all that comes with it.

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 9:26 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
Simple. He started his campaign up and he needs both supporters he can pull volunteers out of and he needs donors.

He has just re-energized his base and they are ripe for recruitment and rally.

As I said in my follow-up post, I think this move will piss his base off and give them a rallying cry to try to force withdrawal from Afghanistan that the President can't, or isn't ready to, follow.


*Cough*

http://thehill.com/homenews/administrat ... afghan-war

Quote:
Pressure builds to end Afghan war

The killing of Osama bin Laden, a tremendous victory for the Obama administration, has led to new questions about whether it is time to end the Afghanistan war.

Senate Majority Whip Dick Durbin (D-Ill.) said he voted for the 2001 resolution authorizing the war, taken just months after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, “to go after” al Qaeda and bin Laden.

“Now here we are, 10 years later,” Durbin said. “If you asked me if I was signing up for the longest war in U.S. history, with no end in sight, even with the killing of Osama bin Laden, that was not the bargain, that is not what I was signing up for.”

Durbin’s comments come one day after Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) expressed support for President Obama's withdrawal timetable, which calls for U.S. troops to remain in Afghanistan through 2014.

Carl Levin (D-Mich.), the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, said he hopes bin Laden’s death will compel the Obama administration to bring home a “robust” number of American troops when it starts a planned partial withdrawal in July.

While Levin has no plans to push legislation requiring such a pullout, he will publicly advocate for a “significant reduction,” he said Monday.

The White House has stressed that the death of bin Laden is a major victory in the battle against al Qaeda, but should not be seen as a reason to change the U.S. game plan in Afghanistan.

White House press secretary Jay Carney said Tuesday that Obama’s strategy for Afghanistan and Pakistan “remains very much in place.”

Carney said the president is committed to the war in Afghanistan, and that the pace of a troop drawdown will “be determined by the conditions on the ground.”

Carney said the president is still focused on pursuing and destroying the al Qaeda network, and that will continue in the way Obama laid out when he unveiled his plan for the region in December 2009. “Getting bin Laden was very much a part of that plan, but it was not the only part,” he said.

A weariness about the Afghanistan war had set in well before bin Laden’s killing. A March poll by ABC News and The Washington Post found that nearly two-thirds of those responding no longer think the war is worth fighting.

A new poll released Wednesday by Gallup found more than 50 percent of Americans still think the country has work to do in Afghanistan, but also revealed a significant party split.

Fifty-four percent of Democrats said the U.S. had achieved its goal in Afghanistan, compared to 38 percent of Republicans and 44 percent of independents.

On Capitol Hill, many lawmakers are worried not only about those polls, but about the cost of continuing the war at a time of record deficits. The fact that recent attempted attacks on U.S. soil have been hatched in other countries also has raised questions about continuing the fight in Afghanistan.

During a Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing on Tuesday, several committee members zeroed in on the tens of billions of dollars Washington already has spent in Afghanistan, and questioned whether such expenditures are sustainable in the future.

Sen. Dick Lugar (R-Ind.), the panel’s ranking member, said Afghanistan no longer holds the strategic importance to match Washington’s investment. He cited recent comments from senior national-security officials that terrorist strikes on America are more likely to be planned in places like Yemen.

He said it is no longer “clear why we’re there,” saying nations like Yemen that harbor extremists “are getting a free pass.”

Lugar raised concerns that U.S. policy on Afghanistan is focused more on building up its economic, political and security systems. “Such grand nation-building is beyond our powers,” he said bluntly.

Lugar called on Obama to define success in Afghanistan, and to begin working toward that revised goal.

There remains a level of support for the fight in Afghanistan in both parties, and bin Laden’s death has not led to a groundswell of calls for troop withdrawals.

“With the death of bin Laden, some people will ask why we don’t pack up and leave Afghanistan. We can’t do that,” said Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.), the Foreign Relations Committee chairman. “But it is no longer enough to simply lay out our goals. We need to determine what type of Afghanistan we plan to leave in our wake so that we may actually achieve these objectives. And how will peace be achieved?”

Rep. Adam Smith (Wash.), the ranking Democrat on the House Armed Services Committee, said in a telephone interview that he thinks bin Laden’s death should make things “easier” in Afghanistan.

That’s largely because “we killed the No. 1 guy,” Smith said, which “undermines the message that we’re losing.”

Sen. Bob Corker (R-Tenn.) said his sense is that most lawmakers will give senior Pentagon officials a few more months to try and make further operational gains during the traditional spring “fighting season.”

Still, even Kerry acknowledged the costs of the war carry a toll.

“As we debate the end-state, we must factor in what we can afford in light of our budget constraints,” the chairman said. “We will spend $120 billion in Afghanistan this fiscal year, and our decisions on resource allocations there affect our global posture elsewhere, as we see today in the Middle East. We have to ask at every turn if our strategy in Afghanistan is sustainable.”

While lawmakers appear willing to see what happens in Afghanistan over the next few months, some, like Corker, are asking pointed questions about whether Washington can replicate this kind of mission elsewhere.

“This is not a model for the future,” Corker said. “This is not something we can do in country after country after country.”

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 9:29 am 
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And it requires a leap of faith to believe U.S. Soldiers killed Osama Bin Laden in the raid.

Here's a whole of things you or I will never be able to verify:

a) That Osama Bin Laden was there

b) That he was alive in the first place

c) That he was shot after resisting arrest

d) That he died as a result of these wounds

e) That his body was dumped into an ocean

In fact, it's not in the United States's best interest for any of those things to take place, particularly given the political and intelligence capital to be gained by taking Bin Laden alive.

Even so, assuming all of those things to be true, they still cannot be verified and verification has been made impossible. Whether or not verification was ever probable matters not one whit, because the possibility of verification increases the credibility of the claims. Likewise, since there exists a substantial and tangible political gain to be had from making such claims, they cannot be examined without that encumbrance.

Consequently, it didn't happen, because what happened cannot be known in any meaningful manner and cannot be verified by disinterested third parties.

Do I know what happened? No.

Do I believe the official story? Too many inconsistencies among talking heads to believe what's been said so far ...

Not everyone is being given the same basket of information, and inconsistency among details is a huge indicator of edited information.

Do I believe Osama Bin Laden is dead? I have no reason to believe he is alive or dead.

Do I believe U.S. Soldiers killed him? I no longer have any reason to do so.

Do I think this is some conspiracy? Not one bit.

You guys, however, refuse to consider the political capital gained with the domestic audience by making verification impossible. In fact, you refuse to consider that politicians consider everything, even something this universally huge to the majority of Americans, as a way to reassure re-election.

So, no, I'm not a hypocrite at all, TheRiov; you're simply not smart enough to understand the arguments before you.

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 9:31 am 
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Khross you blatently stated that "it didn't happen" not that "its not verifiable" or even "it didn't happen that way."


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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 9:32 am 
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Khross wrote:
Do I think this is some conspiracy? Not one bit.


The lie requires a conspiracy. The lie itself requires thousands of people be complicit in its telling (Including, now, Osama's own daughter). That is a conspiracy.

If you believe it may be a lie, then you believe it may be a conspiracy, because the lie requires the conspiracy to work.

If it's the truth, there's no conspiracy. If it's a lie, then there absolutely must be one.

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 9:35 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
His daughter (in Pakistani custody) said today that:
A) She was there
B) Osama was there
C) Osama was taken alive
D) The Seals executed him on the spot


While this should certainly be distasteful to the same democrats who decried such actions under Bush, it is technically not against any american law. American troops may have committed murder in Pakistan, but frankly, **** pakistan.

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 9:37 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
Simple. He started his campaign up and he needs both supporters he can pull volunteers out of and he needs donors.

He has just re-energized his base and they are ripe for recruitment and rally.

As I said in my follow-up post, I think this move will piss his base off and give them a rallying cry to try to force withdrawal from Afghanistan that the President can't, or isn't ready to, follow.


*Cough*

http://thehill.com/homenews/administrat ... afghan-war

Quote:
Pressure builds to end Afghan war

The killing of Osama bin Laden, a tremendous victory for the Obama administration, has led to new questions about whether it is time to end the Afghanistan war.

Senate Majority Whip Dick Durbin (D-Ill.) said he voted for the 2001 resolution authorizing the war, taken just months after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, “to go after” al Qaeda and bin Laden.

“Now here we are, 10 years later,” Durbin said. “If you asked me if I was signing up for the longest war in U.S. history, with no end in sight, even with the killing of Osama bin Laden, that was not the bargain, that is not what I was signing up for.”

Durbin’s comments come one day after Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) expressed support for President Obama's withdrawal timetable, which calls for U.S. troops to remain in Afghanistan through 2014.

Carl Levin (D-Mich.), the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, said he hopes bin Laden’s death will compel the Obama administration to bring home a “robust” number of American troops when it starts a planned partial withdrawal in July.

While Levin has no plans to push legislation requiring such a pullout, he will publicly advocate for a “significant reduction,” he said Monday.

The White House has stressed that the death of bin Laden is a major victory in the battle against al Qaeda, but should not be seen as a reason to change the U.S. game plan in Afghanistan.

White House press secretary Jay Carney said Tuesday that Obama’s strategy for Afghanistan and Pakistan “remains very much in place.”

Carney said the president is committed to the war in Afghanistan, and that the pace of a troop drawdown will “be determined by the conditions on the ground.”

Carney said the president is still focused on pursuing and destroying the al Qaeda network, and that will continue in the way Obama laid out when he unveiled his plan for the region in December 2009. “Getting bin Laden was very much a part of that plan, but it was not the only part,” he said.

A weariness about the Afghanistan war had set in well before bin Laden’s killing. A March poll by ABC News and The Washington Post found that nearly two-thirds of those responding no longer think the war is worth fighting.

A new poll released Wednesday by Gallup found more than 50 percent of Americans still think the country has work to do in Afghanistan, but also revealed a significant party split.

Fifty-four percent of Democrats said the U.S. had achieved its goal in Afghanistan, compared to 38 percent of Republicans and 44 percent of independents.

On Capitol Hill, many lawmakers are worried not only about those polls, but about the cost of continuing the war at a time of record deficits. The fact that recent attempted attacks on U.S. soil have been hatched in other countries also has raised questions about continuing the fight in Afghanistan.

During a Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing on Tuesday, several committee members zeroed in on the tens of billions of dollars Washington already has spent in Afghanistan, and questioned whether such expenditures are sustainable in the future.

Sen. Dick Lugar (R-Ind.), the panel’s ranking member, said Afghanistan no longer holds the strategic importance to match Washington’s investment. He cited recent comments from senior national-security officials that terrorist strikes on America are more likely to be planned in places like Yemen.

He said it is no longer “clear why we’re there,” saying nations like Yemen that harbor extremists “are getting a free pass.”

Lugar raised concerns that U.S. policy on Afghanistan is focused more on building up its economic, political and security systems. “Such grand nation-building is beyond our powers,” he said bluntly.

Lugar called on Obama to define success in Afghanistan, and to begin working toward that revised goal.

There remains a level of support for the fight in Afghanistan in both parties, and bin Laden’s death has not led to a groundswell of calls for troop withdrawals.

“With the death of bin Laden, some people will ask why we don’t pack up and leave Afghanistan. We can’t do that,” said Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.), the Foreign Relations Committee chairman. “But it is no longer enough to simply lay out our goals. We need to determine what type of Afghanistan we plan to leave in our wake so that we may actually achieve these objectives. And how will peace be achieved?”

Rep. Adam Smith (Wash.), the ranking Democrat on the House Armed Services Committee, said in a telephone interview that he thinks bin Laden’s death should make things “easier” in Afghanistan.

That’s largely because “we killed the No. 1 guy,” Smith said, which “undermines the message that we’re losing.”

Sen. Bob Corker (R-Tenn.) said his sense is that most lawmakers will give senior Pentagon officials a few more months to try and make further operational gains during the traditional spring “fighting season.”

Still, even Kerry acknowledged the costs of the war carry a toll.

“As we debate the end-state, we must factor in what we can afford in light of our budget constraints,” the chairman said. “We will spend $120 billion in Afghanistan this fiscal year, and our decisions on resource allocations there affect our global posture elsewhere, as we see today in the Middle East. We have to ask at every turn if our strategy in Afghanistan is sustainable.”

While lawmakers appear willing to see what happens in Afghanistan over the next few months, some, like Corker, are asking pointed questions about whether Washington can replicate this kind of mission elsewhere.

“This is not a model for the future,” Corker said. “This is not something we can do in country after country after country.”



Which has what to do with my statement? I see a debate that is going to strengthen the incumbent President's party and its perception over any opponent. I don't see any negative polling numbers for Obama, I don't see any comment about a loss or stagnation of volunteers in his campaign.

Read what I wrote and then comment on that please.

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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 9:39 am 
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Talya wrote:
If it's the truth, there's no conspiracy. If it's a lie, then there absolutely must be one.
That's a false dilemma ...

The only reasonable conspiracy is that Bin Laden is a) Still Alive and b) in U.S. Custody somewhere above the pay grade of most of the people in the operations room. Which, oddly enough, is far more believable than a summary execution and surreptitiously swift disposal of his body.

_________________
Corolinth wrote:
Facism is not a school of thought, it is a racial slur.


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