The Glade 4.0

And at what "grade level" do you think the average science fiction or fantasy novel falls?

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Hahahahahaha!!!

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"Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Jesus of Nazareth

Books aren't about the sophistication of language... it's everything else that matters.

What's the average? I'd say that, for example Kushiel's Dart is significantly harder than anything about Driz'zt Do'Urden, but I don't know that I know what represents the average.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Average? Probably between 6th to 8th grade.

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Holy shitsnacks!

SHHHHHH!! If the last decade taught us anything it is that bubbles are not meant to be burst!!!!

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I'm sure it depends on the author.

Really? On what are you basing your assumption its any more complex than the average newspaper? In fact, how would you compare the bulk of posts here to a newspaper?

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The bulk of the posts here generally fall into the insipid/childish spectrum. There are some that become technical and complex, but it's the exception not the rule. Often times the vocabulary is above what I would expect from a 4th grade reading level, but the grammar is not all that great.

I'm basing my comments on vocabulary and sentence strucure/complexity mostly. But I'm honestly more interested in what you think the reading levels are. My impressions are purely anecdotal and not based off of any formal study or even knowledge of what the markers are for the "grade level" equivelant. But my gut tells me that the average 4th grader isn't going to understand most Asimov, Heinlein or Herbert.

So does your face.

Why? What is it that makes Elmarnieh's argument that a "Right to Service" constitutes moral slavery insipid? Or, is that post simply childish? How and why do you distinguish between the two? What metrics are you using to determine the intermediate values on that spectrum? What are the major intermediate classifications between insipid and childish, for that matter?Sentence structure and sentence complexity are not necessarily related; nor, for that matter, do more complex sentences demonstrate a higher required reading level. One would assume, based on the statements you've made in this thread, you value word count, diacritic marks, punctuation, and various morphological structures that may or may not indicate a higher required literacy, but your general positing history suggests otherwise. That is to say, I'm not entirely convinced your anecdotal observations are true in any given linguistic sense.

In fact, give me a rough estimate of the reading level required for the previous paragraph.I think the Flesch-Kincaid scale is mostly useless. But, were I "guessing" based on my study of the language used on these forums, it wouldn't be much higher than 4th Grade, if at all. Your primary mistake is assuming that a low Grade Equivalent is a functionally and intellectually "Bad Thing". As a general rule, the lowet the Grade Equivalent the higher the readability and more didactic the language happens to be. Interpretive space is a generally bad thing when it comes to conveying information, facts, or rules. Consequently, the expectation that newspapers with limited print space and a need to maximize delivery of information should be beyond basic reading/literacy skills is absurd.I think you grossly overestimate the complexity of these authors. What peculiar traits do you think they possess that elevates them beyond the cognitive capabilities of a fourth grader? Better yet, what grade level do you think would be appropriate for understanding those authors?

In fact, I'm willing to bet that if you copy and paste this post into Word, it will return a grade level in the 6th grade (+/- 1) range.

All of that said, this thread is about literacy. I will suggest, as I have before, that Americans suffer from two a priori problems when it comes to literacy:

1. Literacy is not simply the ability to read.

2. Literacy is not basic reading comprehension and the ability to read.

Literacy is a set of skills that far exceeds anything our education system teaches or standard benchmarks measure. In fact, I would suggest that some parties in this thread demonstrate no understanding of literacy at all, particularly as they have substantiated Corolinth's observations subconsciously. Likewise, I would note that literacy is often related to a particular subject far more than it is knowledge in general. The same student that makes little of Stranger in a Strange Land might very well have expert level knowledge and literacy with regards to basketball stats and sport theory. And he might very well know nothing of how to read beyond the box scares for each game.

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My brother used to obsessively play Warlords 1 when he was 2 or 3 years old. He knew what all the words on the buttons meant from memorization but he couldn't read at all.

Edited

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A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill

1. You make the false assumption that I have put together some scale or even spent any amount of time trying to formalize some metrics. Fact is, everyone comes here for entertainment and to waste time. Consequently, that's about as much attention as anyone puts into their posts. Not saying it's a bad thing.

2. My observations may indeed be off. In my mind the value of any of the attributes you listed varies depending on the medium and target audience. I'd put the reading level for that paragraph at around 6-7th grade.

3. You make a good point about a low grade level not necessarily being a bad thing. I certainly support the idea of the newspaper being clear and concise with a high degree of readability. But if you understand that I was including vocabulary and complexity of sentence (and I should have said concept as well), I would think that some of those would raise it beyond a 4th grade level. But perhaps I'm just adding in values that aren't part of the grade rating scale.

4. Mostly I think they are more complex authors due to the complexity of the subject matter and concepts that they are writing about. In a general sense, I would say that somewhere in the 8th grade give or take is when most students should be able to understand the majority of their works. Absolutely literacy goes beyone just the ability to read. Personally I always included the concepts of your last paragraph within "reading comprehension", but I can see your argument for them being seperate. I also completely agree that high levels of literacy are often specific to subject matter.

Actually, I asked a bunch of questions in order to determine what you meant by a particular phrase and statement. I made no assumptions about your position or statement in that part of the post.

That said, what makes Heinlein, Asimov, and Herbert's subject matter more complex than say The Lorax or Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone?

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...I was reading those when I was maybe ten.

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Grenade 3 Sports Drink. It's fire in the hole.. Your hole!

Asimov used to appear in the Boy Scout Magazine (whatever it was called).

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I'm not sure I'd necessarily say they are more complex. I think the political intruigue in Dune for instance is deeper and perhaps more complex than Harry Potter, but that's really starting to split hairs I think.

Aizle:

Seems to me you're having trouble qualifying your statements here. If you've made that valuation, then you obviously possess some sort of mechanism for making that valuation, even if its just intuition. Nevertheless, in terms of textual density and complexity, there's really nothing to substantively different between Herbert and Rowling, but one is obviously considered a children's book while the other is not. Any literacy required contextualize Herbert into something more meaningful is simultaneously applicable to Rowling's text as well.

But, perhaps some statistics are in order ...

Less than 3% of the American population possesses Level 5 Literacy according to the study that Vindicarre's links reference. The combined population for Level 4 and Level 5 literacy is 20%. Indeed, that means 80% of Americans are either Level 1, 2, or 3 literate; or, in other words, fundamentally incapable of performing complex literacy tasks.

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I don't mean to misconstrue your post, but it sounds to me like you're mixing up writing/literacy levels with subject matter complexity.

That is perhaps my fault, in bringing up the reading level of newspapers throughout the country.

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Buckle your pants or they might fall down.

Well, I am combining them, because to me both are part of overall comprehension of the work. Perhaps this is wrong, but when I think of a reading "grade level" I think of at what level would they be able to comprehend and have a reasonable expectation of fully understanding the work. Being able to understand a complex subject matter is part and parcel with that IMHO.

Goddamnit Coro.

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Holy shitsnacks!

Surely, all those Warhammer novels are master works.

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"...the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?" -Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

Honor Harrington certainly was

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Holy shitsnacks!