The Glade 4.0

Two different links to the video.



http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/05/12/sen_rand_paul_right_to_health_care_is_like_believing_in_slavery.html

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Memento Vivere

I have local knowledge.
That sandbar was not there yesterday!

Helping sick people is equivalent to slavery? That's the most retarded thing ever. I haven't watched the video yet though because I'm listening to a conference call.

Reminds me of this:
Mitt Romney Haunted By Past Of Trying To Help Uninsured Sick People

He is absolutely correct.

If I have a right to a thing I can demand it without any opposition. Right to speech, religion, assembly, association etc.

Thus if I have a right to healthcare I can demand any healthcare professionals time whenever I like (just like I can pray whenever I want to). I can demand drugs, and instrumentation as I (and only I ) see fit to judge such services and items as best fit to attain happiness.

That is literally the philosophical position being put forth when people say there is a right to healthcare.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

If the government can take taxes from people against their will, then it's perfectly fine to use these taxes to pay for healthcare. You don't have a right to hold onto your money, Elmarnieh. We don't live in feudal times when land owners basically have sovereignty. Society can demand things from you and if you don't like it you can live in the woods.

This of course is why we have such a problem with people going up and DEMANDING clergies time anytime people feel like it without any ability for the clergy to say piss off. And why anyone can assemble anytime in any city without any process to go through to keep it safe and practical.

Two moral wrong do not equate to a moral right Lex. Misunderstanding this truth is something your namesake and you seem to have in common.

I have a right to hold onto my property because it is my property. That is it. Society can make claims and can use force against me to infringe on my rights and take my property and my options of redress of this breach of peace is far more than living in the woods.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

If universal healthcare is imposed correctly like in Canada or the U.K., then it would make everyone's life a lot easier. You don't have to worry about medical costs when you get sick. Also since you would have no property except for wooden logs and dirt without society's help, you don't truly own it.

I hang out with the group of friends I choose whenever I wish to wherever we wish to.

People don't have the right to other people's time and right to freedom of religion is not the same as a right to other's time conversely the right to other's time is implicit in a supposed right to healthcare or do you believe that healthcare can be provided for through your own prayers? If I need antibiotics how do I get them without intersecting with the fruit of labor of another human?

The best you can do is put in emoticons which you feel are clever because in fact you have nothing clever at all to offer as a rebuttal.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

How would you feel if I imposed on sewing your fingers together so you couldn't type because it would be so much easier on the society of the glade?

Starting to see how the imposition of things even if done for the supposed "good of society" (which is a myth anyway) isn't always the best course of action?


Oh wait - you're a troll.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

Just because you disagree doesn't make me a troll. Sewing my fingers together is obviously bad for me and is a human rights violation.

No your past behavior makes you a troll Lex.

Depriving me of my property by force is obviously bad for me and is a human right violation.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

It wasn't your property to begin with in an absolute sense, and no it isn't. Taxes are imposed everywhere to people's benefits. I suppose you want toll booths every half mile on private roads?

Your personal attacks just hurt your arguments.

Sadly it is, because writing stuff up in crayon and scanning it in to make it simpler for you to understand is more than I have time for.

Honestly, if you can't figure out the logic holes in what you've said (which I did rebutt and you conveniently ignored), then there really isn't much I can do for you.

If its imposed correctly...
Imposed correctly....
Imposed...

LOL I smell great things brewing in this thread.

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A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill

No your past behavior makes you a troll Lex.

Depriving me of my property by force is obviously bad for me and is a human right violation.[/quote]

It wasn't your property to begin with in an absolute sense, and no it isn't. Taxes are imposed everywhere to people's benefits. I suppose you want toll booths every half mile on private roads?

Your personal attacks just hurt your arguments.[/quote]


The roads neither have to be public or toll only in order to exist yet that is all you say. And yes if I labor for it and invest my time I am the absolute owner of the property and no law nor amount of force can change that natural relationship. Hopefully one day you will understand and lament your past foolishness.

It isn't a personal attack Lex its the label that is appropriate for your behavior.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

No, the actual reason is you don't have a coherent philosophy and when your piecemeal presentation is challenged you fall back on the only thing you believe to cover your lack of introspection in your own beliefs.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

As usual, you don't know what you're talking about Elmo.

You'll note we have the right to *freedom* of religion, not a right to have our spiritual needs served. The former is not an analogue of any worth to universal healthcare. The latter, is. And the founding fathers didn't provide for it for the same reason it would be wrong to provide universal health care.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

You believe that to somehow be a rebuttal?

Rights are things that describe the possessor of as the ultimate authority of use. If I have a right to healthcare I am claiming ultimate authority of use on the tools of healthcare. I can demand it as it is my right. I can demand such care and necessarily then I can demand the actions of those providing that care - they have no say in the matter as I am the ultimate authority.

My right to life - who has the ultimate authority to decide if I live or die and to consent to harm or not to?
My right to speech - who has the ultimate authority to decide what I say and what I think?
My right to religion - who has the ultimate authority to decide if what or who I worship?

You cannot answer these questions Aizle because you fundamentally do not understand the subject matter. No matter how many times I try to educate you - you retreat into your emotional dithering. It is embarrassing and I feel sorry for you.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

Yes, an actual "right" to health care is equivalent to slavery. Really though, public health care is not a "right" to health care. It's a right to a certain amount of money that can be spent on health care. Nobody is putting a gun to a doctor's head and forcing him to treat you. The government just gives you a certain amount of money and the doctor can take it or leave it.

Public health care is basically inevitable. The moral hazard created by the current system is guaranteed to break it, and nobody is willing to adopt a fully private system that kicks ten million people to the curb with no health care whatsoever.

The problem as always Elmo is that while those are all rights that are generally accepted in the US, they are all limited in various ways. Similar to the way a right to healthcare would be limited.

The government has the ability and right to limit one's life, speech and even religion in certain circumstances.

So counter to your and Rand's doomsday predictions, creating a right to healthcare would not make slaves of us all. That is just extreme rhetoric by radicals who are out of touch with reality.

Until we get into things like mandated price controls...

When the government starts telling you what you can sell your products/services for, and then the public raises a stink because suddenly the providers of those products/services start deciding it's not worth providing them and there are shortages... What's the next step?

Now, consider how the gov't hauls Big Oil in front of a congressional hearing whenever it turns a profit for a year. Are you sure what the next step is?

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

So some one has a right to my time and service? Guess my only right would to be to leave the service. Look at wait time increases in Mass. All Liberals ever have is an emotional argument to these things.

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"Life isn't divided into genres. It's a horrifying, romantic, tragic, comical, science-fiction cowboy detective novel. You know, with a bit of pornography if you're lucky."
— Alan Moore

Well its a privilege granted to government and its only really a benefit to those whose healthcosts would be greater than their own willingness or ability to provide for their own health services and only this after all costs and restrictions caused by the system are factored in. To anyone else its harm.

Nice to see a person actually willing to enter a reasonable response Xeq, thank you.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

With regards to Big Oil.....ever notice the price of gas increases far more than the price of oil, and never ever goes back down to its previous level? They're using the same refining process, where's that increase coming from other than their realization that people need gas and they can hike the price 50% and double their profits without actually doing anything?

The medical profession faces the opposite problem, costs are rising faster than prices. Private health care is just not workable, since we've proven that trying to have it both ways with private health care + Medicare/Medicaid doesn't work at all. We have fifty million people without medical insurance. Sure, if we went private the cost would come down and charity would attend to some others, but you're still going to have 10+ million that can't afford it and get no health care at all.