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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 2:12 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Which is great, but at the end of the day, I'm not the one getting the reach around, but I'm still getting **** in the ***.


aye, as I said... I am in the government stays out of it camp. Either way someone is taking in the pooper.

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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 2:20 pm 
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If you are going to mandate their service, give medical professionals immunity to law suites.

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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 2:23 pm 
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Rorinthas wrote:
Fun fact: If we confiscated all of Exon's evil profits gas would only go down by 7 cents per gallon.


I saw this the other night and laughed when the "Evil Oil Companies" was brought up here, again.

Micheal wrote:
The concept of slavery is incorrect. The health professionals will not be under the whip, they will not be owned and forced to labor against their will and without compensation. Most of all, they can pick up their black bags and leave if they are not willing to work under the conditions set by the government.

They will be compensated, the government is merely deciding what that compensation will be rather than allowing the medical practitioners to set their own prices. This is not new, governments have been setting what they are willing to pay for goods and services for many centuries.

What this is does not equal slavery. It is better defined as change. It is the latest change in the path from free-wheeling capitalism to the socialism we are rapidly becoming in trying to defend our citizens from the greed of capitalism denying them services.


What this tells us is that you don't understand the concept of what a "right" is; you're obviously not alone.
What happens when someone is proven to have murdered someone, thereby denying them of their right to life?
What happens when doctors "pick up their black bags and leave"?
If healthcare is deemed a right, what should happen to someone who denies another their right to healthcare?

Micheal wrote:
Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The current system did not work at guaranteeing that for anyone outside the medical professions and their associated suppliers. You didn't get all three.


The Government cannot provide a life for you, it cannot provide liberty, nor can it provide a pursuit of happiness. What it can do is attempt to stop others from taking those things away from you. You don't get all three? I do, and so do you; to whatever extent you feel you didn't have all three is because of your own actions, and the actions of Government.

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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 2:26 pm 
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Without government support the current system would not and could not exist. You are arguing against the change in the level of government support. you are arguing for keeping the status quo, as inefficient and wasteful as it is.

You truly do not understand slavery Elmarnieh. Slaves are not allowed to leave, are not given a choice in what they do. It is a hate word used to make a point in areas where it doesn't apply, as here. This is not slavery. Every one in the medical professions has the right to leave their profession and go find something else to do as many professionals have had to do when their jobs have been replaced by new ways of doing things. As I recall, Squirrel Girl retired rather than continue working at an impoverishing rate of compensation in her field.

Compensation for healthcare as it has been practiced is changing. The reasons for the change should be obvious, and that is because the downtrodden in our society, which these days has come to include pretty much everyone without health insurance, haven't been able to afford staying healthy and alive. You can argue the healthy part all you like but the constitution does guarantee the right to life.

Professions have changed over the years. Collecting horse droppings in the streets used to be a regular job until the automobile made it obsolete. Automation has made any number of professions extinct. Many more professions have become niche professions paying much less and performed at a much lower frequency. I know a few blacksmiths, and only one does it as a profession and he does it mostly for historical re creationists and the occasional art piece ordered. The others are hobbyists.

Medicine is a high end skill. There will be a side industry of health professionals who refuse to take the governments nickel, who decline accepting patients who cannot pay. They will treat the patients who can afford them, the ones who come to them because they are the best at what they do and choose to stand apart from the system. More power to them. They will be violating their oaths for personal enrichment, but that is their choice.

Your opposition to a right to health care is more than just the political stance it seems. You truly believe it is wrong. I understand that. I don't think you have fully thought through your stance.

I also feel your arguments inherently support the current government support of the health care system over the new one. I find this a little hypocritical coming from you.

Rynar, your perception level is very high.

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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 2:32 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
People, three years ago the highest barrel of oil price was $148 and the average gas price was the same as it is now, when a barrel of oil topped out at about $113. It would require an absolutely ridiculous inflation rate for inflation to account for that. You're talking 36% in two and a half years.

Compounding a 10.7% inflation over 3 years gives you a 36% rise in those 3 years.

I'm not seeing anything absolutely ridiculous here.

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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 2:37 pm 
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Micheal: What happens when government has need of something, and cannot meet the need because the people who could provide that service do not wish to?

I'll tell you just how far you have to look to find the answer: the draft.

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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 2:40 pm 
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And that is legal slavery. Some philosophical arguments can be made against it being slavery but the government is telling you that you will be employed by them, you have no choice under penalty of law.

It is however a traditional perk of governments. Some governments today have a mandatory service period at certain ages.

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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 2:52 pm 
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Micheal wrote:
Without government support the current system would not and could not exist. You are arguing against the change in the level of government support. you are arguing for keeping the status quo, as inefficient and wasteful as it is.

You truly do not understand slavery Elmarnieh. Slaves are not allowed to leave, are not given a choice in what they do. It is a hate word used to make a point in areas where it doesn't apply, as here. This is not slavery. Every one in the medical professions has the right to leave their profession and go find something else to do as many professionals have had to do when their jobs have been replaced by new ways of doing things. As I recall, Squirrel Girl retired rather than continue working at an impoverishing rate of compensation in her field.

Compensation for healthcare as it has been practiced is changing. The reasons for the change should be obvious, and that is because the downtrodden in our society, which these days has come to include pretty much everyone without health insurance, haven't been able to afford staying healthy and alive. You can argue the healthy part all you like but the constitution does guarantee the right to life.

Professions have changed over the years. Collecting horse droppings in the streets used to be a regular job until the automobile made it obsolete. Automation has made any number of professions extinct. Many more professions have become niche professions paying much less and performed at a much lower frequency. I know a few blacksmiths, and only one does it as a profession and he does it mostly for historical re creationists and the occasional art piece ordered. The others are hobbyists.

Medicine is a high end skill. There will be a side industry of health professionals who refuse to take the governments nickel, who decline accepting patients who cannot pay. They will treat the patients who can afford them, the ones who come to them because they are the best at what they do and choose to stand apart from the system. More power to them. They will be violating their oaths for personal enrichment, but that is their choice.

Your opposition to a right to health care is more than just the political stance it seems. You truly believe it is wrong. I understand that. I don't think you have fully thought through your stance.

I also feel your arguments inherently support the current government support of the health care system over the new one. I find this a little hypocritical coming from you.

Rynar, your perception level is very high.


I understand slavery very well Michael - its the situation where one human enacts superior control over another human's actions. This is fundamentally what the action of a right to healthcare states - that anyone who desires healthcare has defacto superior control over any provider of healthcare's actions.

This is something you cannot get around. You can pretend that is not what it says by appealing to what you believe rights are or repeating some nice sayings or thoughts about what you imagine the ends of this position are. You can even retreat to ignorance as you attempt to argue against a philosophy you barely understand.

You feel about my argument...how very true. I don't support the current health care system. Now will you take my words and know my position or will you allow your feelings to override the facts that have been provided to you? I have my doubts you have the mental fortitude to resist your emotions from being the primary arbiter of your position on this one small fact let alone discussions of philosophy where you already have a very weak grounding.

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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 3:05 pm 
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Your description of slavery fits most human interaction, especially that of employment.

Which leads to the phrase wage slave.

It denies the freedom of choice issue, the ability to choose to not participate - no matter the consequences.

You do not understand slavery Elmarnieh. If you did you would not treat it so cavalierly or use the term so freely to describe things that are not slavery.

As to the rest of your statement. You are an only child. It shows.

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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 3:34 pm 
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Micheal wrote:
Your description of slavery fits most human interaction, especially that of employment.


Incorrect.

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Which leads to the phrase wage slave.


Incorrect.

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It denies the freedom of choice issue, the ability to choose to not participate - no matter the consequences.


Incorrect.

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You do not understand slavery Elmarnieh.


Incorrect.

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If you did you would not treat it so cavalierly or use the term so freely to describe things that are not slavery.


Irrelevant and unknowable.

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As to the rest of your statement. You are an only child. It shows.


Beneath you.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 3:47 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Micheal wrote:
As to the rest of your statement. You are an only child. It shows.


Beneath you.


I'm going to leave the rest of it alone, but I completely agree with this.

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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 4:04 pm 
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Actually I have 4 sisters and two brothers.

Arrogant ignorance is not your best character quality Micheal.

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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 5:01 pm 
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Micheal, I'm curious:
What happens to people who deny another their rights?
Why do you say you "don't get all three" regarding life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?
What oath are doctors violating when they treat only those who can pay?

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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 6:00 pm 
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I'm curious why those of you who called Micheal out for his condescending statements about Elmo didn't do the same to Elmo for his similar statements about Micheal.


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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 6:09 pm 
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Slythe wrote:
I'm curious why those of you who called Micheal out for his condescending statements about Elmo didn't do the same to Elmo for his similar statements about Micheal.


If they were there, I missed them. Could you highlight them for me?

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 6:12 pm 
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Pretty much every post Elmo makes towards anyone who won't let him have his philosophy as the underlying assumptions for the discussion is condescending. He usually substitutes rather pathetic attempts to belittle people for actual argument.

You might want to pay more attention to how he argues and less to the fact that you generally agree with him.

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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 6:15 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Pretty much every post Elmo makes towards anyone who won't let him have his philosophy as the underlying assumptions for the discussion is condescending. He usually substitutes rather pathetic attempts to belittle people for actual argument.

You might want to pay more attention to how he argues and less to the fact that you generally agree with him.


/sigh

All I asked for was highlights of condescending remarks he may or may not have made in this thread. Not a critique of a 10 year posting history.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 6:21 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Pretty much every post Elmo makes towards anyone who won't let him have his philosophy as the underlying assumptions for the discussion is condescending. He usually substitutes rather pathetic attempts to belittle people for actual argument.

You might want to pay more attention to how he argues and less to the fact that you generally agree with him.


/sigh

All I asked for was highlights of condescending remarks he may or may not have made in this thread. Not a critique of a 10 year posting history.


You asked Michael for that. I'm pointing out that he has a 10 year history like that, and this thread is no different. I'm not going to cite specific examples and debate if they're condescending or not. Michael can do that if he wants.

Again, look back at his posts and ask yourself what his tone is like. I'm a little surprised you can't see it, since your own tone is generally different. Everything from Elmo is an attempt to talk about how the other person is "pretending", "afraid", "can't see" or something along those lines. It's essentially a repeat of Monty, where he just can't get it through his head that other people do not have to hold his personal philosophy, and that not agreeing with his assumptions can't possibly be because they simply do not agree with those assumptions. All he does is belittle people and call their character into question, relying on the basic popularity of his ideas about rights with the rest of the community to insulate his behavior from criticism.

He's admitted in the past that his philosophy is based on assumptions; he just tries to play this game of "no one can reject my philosophy without rejecting their own, but I can reject anyone else's!" He does not want to have to argue anything without his pet assumptions already being in play, and is evidently unable to do so out of either lack of reasoning power or cowardice.

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Last edited by Diamondeye on Fri May 13, 2011 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 6:24 pm 
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I haven't seen it in this thread.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 7:06 pm 
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So if all of us health workers are going to be tied to the government's yoke, what kind of compensation can we look at? Life time employment? Can we unionize? :) Think of the strikes, we could be like the transportation workers in Europe! We strike and you die! Would love to see the libs support that unionization.

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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 7:16 pm 
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Are we ever going to discuss what people are actually saying in this thread rather then what we imagine they are saying? Between this and the Obama/Binladen thread I think we need a thunderdome.

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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 7:55 pm 
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What is slavery? We need to look at the definitions under national, and international law. The Treaties in Force of the United States include the 1956 Supplementary Convention on the Abolition of Slavery, The slave trade, and institutions like slavery, signed by the U.S. government (via senate and president) and under Article 6 of the constitution, are the law of the land, any state or federal laws to the contrary notwithstanding.

They are the lawful definition of slavery and involuntary servitude.

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United Nations document E/CN.4/Sub.2/1982/20 (1982) (paragraph 9) of which defines
“slavery” as “any form of dealing with human beings leading to the forced exploitation of their labour.
from http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Publications/slaveryen.pdf


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Article 7 For the purposes of the present Convention:
( a ) "Slavery" means, as defined in the Slavery Convention of 1926, the status or condition of a person over whom any or all of the powers attaching to the right of ownership are exercised, and "slave" means a person in such condition or status;
( b ) "A person of servile status" means a person in the condition or status resulting from any of the institutions or practices mentioned in article 1 of this Convention;
( c ) "Slave trade" means and includes all acts involved in the capture, acquisition or disposal of a person with intent to reduce him to slavery; all acts involved in the acquisition of a slave with a view to selling or exchanging him; all acts of disposal by sale or exchange of a person acquired with a view to being sold or exchanged; and, in general, every act of trade or transport in slaves by whatever means of conveyance.

from http://www2.ohchr.org/english/law/slavetrade.htm


Doctors have a right, created in their labor and studies, to determine the value of their work. That right is, by its nature, a property right. It is the very definition of a business to determine both the value of the product, and part of that business to accept responsibility for failure of that product (malpractice).

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When we consider the nature and the theory of our institutions of government, the principles upon which they are supposed to rest, and review the history of their development, we are constrained to conclude that they do not mean to leave room for the play and action of purely personal and arbitrary power. Sovereignty itself is, of course, not subject to law, for it is the author and source of law; but, in our system, while sovereign powers are delegated to the agencies of government, sovereignty itself remains with the people, by whom and for whom all government exists and acts. And the law is the definition and limitation of power. It is, indeed, quite true that there must always be lodged somewhere, and in some person or body, the authority of final decision, and in many cases of mere administration, the responsibility is purely political, no appeal lying except to the ultimate tribunal of the public judgment, exercised either in the pressure of opinion or by means of the suffrage. But the fundamental rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, considered as individual possessions, are secured by those maxims of constitutional law which are the monuments showing the victorious progress of the race in securing to men the blessings of civilization under the reign of just and equal laws, so that, in the famous language of the Massachusetts Bill of Rights, the government of the commonwealth "may be a government of laws, and not of men." For the very idea that one man may be compelled to hold his life, or the means of living, or any material right essential to the enjoyment of life at the mere will of another seems to be intolerable in any country where freedom prevails, as being the essence of slavery itself.

from YICK WO V. HOPKINS, 118 U. S. 356 (1886)


The health care procedures in Massachusetts are the procedures that the Federal government is aiming for. In Massachusetts, for a physician to obtain a license, they MUST take the state insurance. In other words to work in Massachusetts, a physician is required to take work from the state and be paid at a state controlled rate. Therefore all physicians in Massachusetts are employed by that state. They also have no control and can not negotiate the rates at which they are paid.


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In general the defense against oppressive hour, pay, working conditions, or treatment is the right to change employers. When the master can compel, and the laborer cannot escape the obligation to go on, there is no power below to redress and no incentive to relive a harsh overlordship or unwholesome conditions of work. Resulting depressions of working conditions and living standards affects not only the laborer under the system, but every other with whom his labor comes into competition.

from http://www.pennumbra.com/issues/pdfs/158-6/Pope.pdf


Quote:
The plain intention was to abolish slavery of whatever name and form and all its badges and incidents; to render impossible any state of bondage; to make labor free, by prohibiting that control by which the personal service of one man is disposed of or coerced for another's benefit, which is the essence of involuntary servitude.

from Bailey v. Alabama 219 U.S. 219 (1911)


Synopsis:

If you are required to either work for the government, for the benefit of another, are not free to refuse the terms or renegotiate the nature of the obligation, are not free to negotiate wages, are not free to negotiate the duration of the obligation, and your only recourse is to quit and sacrifice the outlay in the personal property of your effort in becoming educated, your labor, your irrecoverable time, your money for education and have no option to work for someone else at your own recognizance, you are, under international, and US law, under a system of legal coercion and involuntary servitude. You either work for them, or you don't work at all.

You are not free to determine the direction of your life, nor are you free to continue in the vocation which you may enjoy. Your outlay has been seized for political ends, for putative 'gain' wherein you have no control.

You do not have the option of changing employers. You will work for the government, or you will not work. Others will determine how your work will go, and make your customer's health decisions for you. You will be responsible for the success, or failure of other people's decisions, even where those decisions go against your own beliefs, or judgment.

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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 8:00 pm 
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Excellent argument. Very well put.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 8:13 pm 
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You can't get a medical license if you refuse to accept the state's insurance plan? That's ridiculous. Even Medicare lets you opt out.


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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 8:14 pm 
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and likely to be ignored or blown off as unimportant. :(


Xequecal wrote:
You can't get a medical license if you refuse to accept the state's insurance plan? That's ridiculous. Even Medicare lets you opt out.


This has been one of the largest problems people have had with it, and everyone keeps saying that it is not the case.

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