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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:06 pm 
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Nevandal wrote:
it is pretty crazy...could be a risky investment though


That's true. But the dollar is risky as well, and it's only a small minority of my savings in BTC. It's diversifying.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:20 am 
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Well...just made an account at Dwolla. I added my bank account...is there anything I have to do to get them to verify my account, or do I just have to wait? I can't find that info on their site.





Whenever I click the "refresh balance" button in GUIMiner, I get a message back "Bad response from server"

I noticed they added a US East server...I'm assuming these two things are related and there isn't something wrong. It shows I am being rewarded BTC on the site.



Still on the fence about buying some BTC...it could tank pretty hard and go down to like $1 a bitcoin...but on the other hand it could keep going up. It's a tough risk to take, but I've got extra cash just sitting in a savings account, and I've wasted a lot more money buying stupid **** in the past than I'm considering investing into bitcoin. I guess I'll have a few days to think it over while I'm waiting for Dwolla.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:31 am 
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Dwolla deposits a couple pennies into your bank account and then you enter the amount as a number as verification on Dwolla, so they know it is really your account. I will probably write more later but am on my phone and just woke up.

Refresh balance on guiminer is pointless and doesn't do anything.


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 Post subject: Re: Bitcoin mining
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:07 am 
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Alright, so these are my reasons for converting dollars to Bitcoins. These are my own reasons, not copied from any website, but gained from a few months of observation.

I am pretty sure that Bitcoins are currently undervalued.

The user interfaces, guides on how to use Bitcoins, and such are terrible. People should never see a hash or know what it is. This can all be fixed in the future with trusted web interfaces. (key is trusted). Bitcoins can eventually be stored securely online without ever downloading a client, without risk of accidentally deleting your Bitcoins, and without a need to back them up. Bitcoins currently are ANTI user friendly. You nearly have to be a software engineer to understand wtf is going on.

It's hard to buy Bitcoins. You have to know what to do, or figure it out, which isn't easy. This will be made easier. It takes a while to even transfer money to do it. This makes the price lag behind demand some, probably.

There is a max exchange amount per day per account on the main trading site where 95-98% of trading occurs (max rate is $1000 per day, $10000 max per month I believe). So I think from this the price different than actual demand, since the two can't reach an equilibrium as quickly.

Bitcoins used to look like some geeky programming project just because they're cool, and people like to code for no pay, and then trade essentially monopoly money with eachother and rave about how cool their Bitcoins are. However, now Bitcoins are just starting to break into mainstream. There have been dozens of News articles about them in the last week. These news articles have been primarily negative about Bitcoins, because people are stupid in my opinion, but nonetheless they are being discussed.

People are overly paranoid about the government shutting down Bitcoins. I agree it is possible, but I rate it on a far less likely scale than most people. Also even if they are banned here, they could be adopted in other countries. Internet traffic isn't solely contained within the U.S. The price would drop but it could increase again.

Bitcoins, now that they are entering the mainstream, are possibly on the cusp of becoming a global currency. It's possible that the value could soar even higher. I think people are starting to see this and it's why the price rose 3x within the last month ($9 per Bitcoin to $31).

The dollar itself is kind of risky, and buying Bitcoins is a form of diversification, although they are much more volatile than the dollar of course.

Nobody has found a flaw in the Bitcoin protocol or network yet, out of thousands of hacker types of people who love cryptocurrency and are closely following Bitcoin. Furthermore, the network has never come close to being shut down or not enduring the strain. I don't think the network will ever fail for this reason. I think it is very scalable.

Bitcoins have risen so far by 2^8.5 from the value in September and October, on a relatively consistent basis (by my own calculations which might be wrong). The max possible they can rise is an additional 2^20, roughly, which is if they completely take over the world economy. Even if it increases just by 2^3 from where it is now I will make plenty of money.

Most people don't understand much about Bitcoins and think it is just about drug money since this is what they read on all these news articles. The website selling drugs has already been closed to the public.

Paradigm shifts are becoming increasingly more common (notable technological changes follow a logarithmic scale. Think of how years progress in the game Civilization). For example phones to smart phones, wireless connectivity, 3g now, Pads, 3D, 64GB microSD cards, streaming HQ online video, etc. within the last few years. Worldwide internet traffic is still increasing exponentially and is expected to continue.

So these are my reasons for converting a small minority (5-10%) of my savings to Bitcoins. You can disagree, but so far I have been right, since they've increase 2x-3x since I originally planned on converting. Obviously I can't see into the future, so maybe I am wrong and it's a bubble that will imminently collapse. That is why it is 5-10%. They are incredibly volatile so it is a risky thing to do.

I am not posting this as a debate, and although criticism is ok I am not looking to validate any of these points. I'm not trying to proselytize .


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:10 pm 
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There are lots of people speculating about bitcoin reaching 100 USD....even 1000....10,000...I wonder if this is possible.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:12 pm 
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That might not be out of the question. The U.S. dollar (and every other currency in the world) is pretty much worthless.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:03 pm 
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It's definitely possible. There's mainstream articles talking now about how this might be the next currency... once people reading it figure out how to trade, the price will possibly shoot up a bunch more.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:31 pm 
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i would like to see more online retailers accepting bitcoins as currency

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:33 pm 
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Nevandal wrote:
i would like to see more online retailers accepting bitcoins as currency


Since the value hasn't stabilized since the last spikes, it will be difficult for them to accept it. There's also still a lot of news articles talking crap about it being only for drug money and criminal laundering.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:58 pm 
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Latest chart:

Image

Log scale since beginning:

Image

edit:

This is my prediction of the future. Let's see if I'm right. :lol:

Spoiler:
Image


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:57 am 
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Lex, who or where did you find out about bitcoins?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:53 am 
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Nevandal wrote:
Lex, who or where did you find out about bitcoins?


I think reddit.com in either r/programming, r/technology, or r/geek. Those are some of the best places to check out on the Internet imo. A story that broke on wired.com arguably led to Bitcoins tripling in value recently. I also refresh wired.com and arstechnica.com a lot, and the moment I saw the story about drugs (before it hit Reddit even) I was like OMG!! and started transferring money.

Interesting statistic I just found out:

The Bitcoin client was only downloaded about 100k times. This is tiny in my opinion. A lot of obscure smart phone apps you've never heard of were downloaded more than that.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:38 am 
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I just wonder what the next big thing that's going to happen with bitcoin.....I could see this being used for all kinds of things, digital media comes to mind as a strong candidate.

Or there could be a government shutdown or the network could get exploited somehow..that would be a good time to buy bitcoins.

Also I'm wondering when there will be viable competitors to bitcoin, other digital crypto-currencies that that operate in a similar fashion.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:50 am 
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Nevandal wrote:
I just wonder what the next big thing that's going to happen with bitcoin.....I could see this being used for all kinds of things, digital media comes to mind as a strong candidate.

Or there could be a government shutdown or the network could get exploited somehow..that would be a good time to buy bitcoins.

Also I'm wondering when there will be viable competitors to bitcoin, other digital crypto-currencies that that operate in a similar fashion.


The next big thing in my estimation is better and faster trading sites get set up, and tons more money gets exchanged per day, which will increase the value more. I'm not sure after that. I think a chain of semi-random events will lead to a much increased level of adoption over the next couple years, where it'll then be used for all kinds of things. There will also be trustworthy websites that manage Bitcoins for you, so you won't have to download a client ever.

There could eventually be viable competitors, but not any time soon. Nothing is in the works. It could actually stimulate more demand for Bitcoins because it would bring more awareness to it. It would also be very easy to trade between digital currencies, and you could just diversify to reduce risk. There's actually something new called "namecoin", which is like a Bitcoin with emphasis on new domain names or something, but I doubt it will go anywhere.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:58 am 
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it would be pretty interesting to see what happens when there are competitors. i bet that any competitors will be easily exchangeable into and from bitcoins.

i need to learn how to back up my wallet file

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 Post subject: Re: Bitcoin mining
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:08 am 
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Bitcoin is designed really well. If a competitor manages to be better in a technical way, it's highly unlikely that it'll be that much better. I'm pretty sure Bitcoins will stick around for a while.


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 Post subject: Re: Bitcoin mining
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:29 pm 
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I figured out a decent reason to buy if you are interested, after looking through various data... this is Google trends for Mtgox.com, the biggest Bitcoin trading site (where 95% of the trading happens). There is no data on Google for May, although the site has been around for months. So people are suddenly becoming very interested in the trading site, rather than just the idea of Bitcoin or how it works.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:24 am 
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I read about it on Wired a couple of days before you posted, Lex. Honestly, I really have no clue what you're mining here. Well, i have a clue, but I haven't quite been able to wrap my head around it.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 3:51 am 
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As I understand it, the "mining" is contributing to the security of the network. Your computer's GPU is, in simple terms, looking for and confirming the peer to peer transactions that happen on the network. Your reward for mining are bitcoins. 50 bitcoins are "generated" every 10 minutes, no matter what. So the more people that mine, and the faster people mine, the more difficult it is for any one person to mine bitcoins. In effect, bitcoins become harder to acquire as the demand for them increases. So even though the currency is inflationary, the demand for them increases much faster than the supply can keep up with, which increases their value. There will only ever be 21 million bitcoins generated, and that's it. So it will be a set amount, more akin to a commodity. Basically, if bitcoin succeeds as a currency, the early adopters will be rich. This is the digital version of the gold rush.


One thing I'm unsure about is that once all of the bitcoins are generated, what incentive will there be to mine? How will the the network keep track of the transactions?


Also, the deflationary nature of bitcoins value makes me wonder if the currency will succeed. Why would people want to use (spend) their bitcoins if in a few years those bitcoins will be worth much much more? I can buy a hard drive for 2 bitcoins now, but in 5 years I can sell a portion of those bitcoins and buy a Mercedes....why would I bother spending them now? Why would anyone? So it seems like most people will just want to horde their bitcoins and not spend them. I hear more people talking about mining bitcoins and exchanging bitcoins (buy low, sell high) than I hear about people wanting to spend their bitcoins for goods/services. So the incentive that makes early adoption of bitcoins as a currency is also one of it's greatest flaws. I'm no economist, though...so who the hell knows.

As a concept, I think an anonymous, decentralized p2p currency like bitcoin is a great idea.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:07 am 
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http://www.dailytech.com/Digital+Black+ ... e21877.htm

Down 30% in one day, so it says.

Quote:
1. The Bitcoin market endured its first digital equivalent of a "bank rush" with people rushing to exchange their BTC for U.S. Dollars.  
2.  People have a large amount of money -- millions of USD sunk into Bitcoins lost big in the flash crash.
3.  Unlike modern markets, which automatically close to prevent massive inflation, the digital Bitcoin markets stayed open.
4.  Something major is moving the Bitcoin market in a sharp inflationary direction, in contrast to the predict deflationary trend.
.
.
.
By contrast Bitcoin exchanges like Mt. Gox do not accept debit/credit transactions.  Up until last week they did accept eBay, Inc. (EBAY) subsidiary PayPal.  However, PayPal has blocked transactions to the site.  This is because PayPal has a policy against virtual currencies.

With an easy PayPal route gone, market liquidity was dramatically reduced.  This may be a major cause for the market crash.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:28 pm 
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Yup... its very volatile. It's down almost 50% now.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:28 pm 
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I'm glad I didn't buy in at 30.

:lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:36 pm 
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Yeah, that would have sucked. Some people are saying the price will increase on Monday, since that's when Dwolla will approve new funds, but we'll see. It's fun to watch imo.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:22 pm 
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Nevandal wrote:
As I understand it, the "mining" is contributing to the security of the network. Your computer's GPU is, in simple terms, looking for and confirming the peer to peer transactions that happen on the network. Your reward for mining are bitcoins. 50 bitcoins are "generated" every 10 minutes, no matter what. So the more people that mine, and the faster people mine, the more difficult it is for any one person to mine bitcoins. In effect, bitcoins become harder to acquire as the demand for them increases. So even though the currency is inflationary, the demand for them increases much faster than the supply can keep up with, which increases their value. There will only ever be 21 million bitcoins generated, and that's it. So it will be a set amount, more akin to a commodity. Basically, if bitcoin succeeds as a currency, the early adopters will be rich. This is the digital version of the gold rush.


One thing I'm unsure about is that once all of the bitcoins are generated, what incentive will there be to mine? How will the the network keep track of the transactions?


Also, the deflationary nature of bitcoins value makes me wonder if the currency will succeed. Why would people want to use (spend) their bitcoins if in a few years those bitcoins will be worth much much more? I can buy a hard drive for 2 bitcoins now, but in 5 years I can sell a portion of those bitcoins and buy a Mercedes....why would I bother spending them now? Why would anyone? So it seems like most people will just want to horde their bitcoins and not spend them. I hear more people talking about mining bitcoins and exchanging bitcoins (buy low, sell high) than I hear about people wanting to spend their bitcoins for goods/services. So the incentive that makes early adoption of bitcoins as a currency is also one of it's greatest flaws. I'm no economist, though...so who the hell knows.

As a concept, I think an anonymous, decentralized p2p currency like bitcoin is a great idea.

Ah, OK, thanks. Good explanation, that helps.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:48 pm 
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Check it out...

http://www.btcbuy.info/

They sell Amazon / Newegg gift cards for BTC.

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