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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:57 am 
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http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/201 ... ustifiable

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Sen. Claire McCaskill (D-Mo.) said that after a year-long investigation by a Senate subcommittee, "it's becoming increasingly clear that our efforts to rein in the narcotics trade in Latin America, especially as it relates to the government's use of contractors, have largely failed."

The report comes a week after a high-powered commission of former world leaders came to the conclusion that the global war on drugs had "failed." Mark wrote about that report, last week.

The Los Angeles Times reports that the Senate subcommitte couldn't find any evidence that the billions of dollars spent on fighting the war on drugs was actually reducing the amount of illegal narcotics that found their way into the United States:

"We are wasting tax dollars and throwing money at a problem without even knowing what we are getting in return," said Sen.Claire McCaskill (D-Mo.), who chairs the Senate subcommittee that wrote one of the reports, which was released Wednesday.

"I think we have wasted our money hugely," agreed Bruce Bagley, who studies U.S. counter-narcotics efforts and chairs international studies at the University of Miami at Coral Gables, Fla. "The effort has had corrosive effects on every country it has touched."

The St. Louis Post-Dispatch reports that investigators looked at Pentagon and State Department spending in Latin America from 2005 to 2009.

The Obama administration, reports the Times, does not agree with the report:


White House officials say the expanding U.S. counter-narcotics effort occupies a growing portion of time for President Obama's national security team even though it garners few headlines or congressional hearings in Washington.


Wow, and everyone thought it was going so well. They did some great work here discovering this.

Also, the Obama administration is evil.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:16 am 
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Not evil. Just stupid.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:52 am 
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Müs wrote:
Not evil. Just stupid.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:19 pm 
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Did anyone think a war against a concept could ever be successful?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:58 am 
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What about the War on Terrahr? That's going well.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:36 am 
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The War on Terror is over. President Obama got him, and soundly defeated George W. Bush. Don't you remember that?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:59 pm 
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"Mission Accomplished" - Barack Obama.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:50 pm 
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Rafael wrote:
Did anyone think a war against a concept could ever be successful?


Drugs aren't a concept. That said, it still wasn't likely to be successful.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:25 am 
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**** yeah!

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:18 am 
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Corolinth wrote:
The War on Terror is over. President Obama got him, and soundly defeated George W. Bush. Don't you remember that?



Did he win in the 3rd by KO? I had him in the 3rd by KO...

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:49 pm 
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According to NPR, the new tactic isn't that it's the drug trafficker's fault, it the fault of US citizens for wanting something that should be legal. If only we didn't have the market for it, criminals wouldn't be making huge profits. Let's ignore that fake crimes still draw in real criminals and that the illegality of the whole thing is what makes their profit margins so high.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:35 am 
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Wwen wrote:
According to NPR, the new tactic isn't that it's the drug trafficker's fault, it the fault of US citizens for wanting something that should be legal. If only we didn't have the market for it, criminals wouldn't be making huge profits. Let's ignore that fake crimes still draw in real criminals and that the illegality of the whole thing is what makes their profit margins so high.


They're right, but only considering half of it.

1) It is correct that if they can kill the demand, the problem will go away.
2) It is correct that if you kill supply, the problem will go away.
3) It's also correct that if they produce a legal market, the vast majority of the problem will go away.

The problem is that 1 and 2 are impossible. Still, progress on 1 is better than progress on 2, if you won't consider 3.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 5:51 pm 
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Yeah, I'd rather not settle for less though. It would figure that our political class, in their hubris for wanting to be the guiding hand for the clueless masses, would want to start trying to mold how people think/behave.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:53 pm 
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Wwen wrote:
Yeah, I'd rather not settle for less though. It would figure that our political class, in their hubris for wanting to be the guiding hand for the clueless masses, would want to start trying to mold how people think/behave.


It works, if done "correctly". It's certainly more successful than trying to stop supply of a high profit margin, high demand product.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:34 am 
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You know what works? Liberty. :D

But seriously, what is the "it" that you are saying works? Molding how people think?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:18 am 
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Wwen wrote:
You know what works? Liberty. :D

But seriously, what is the "it" that you are saying works? Molding how people think?


Yes. Governments can successfully mold how people think.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:48 am 
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Yes, but no government can entirely eliminate the sinful human condition. I realize our current government position on controlled substances is highly hypocritical as we largely ignore the social, safety and health impacts of drinking and smoking.
I'm not comfortable voting for the full on legalization of MJ or crack personally though. Im not certain the gangsters would just disappear in a puff of smoke or melt like the wicked witch of the west because we legalize them.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 11:19 am 
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Rorinthas wrote:
Yes, but no government can entirely eliminate the sinful human condition. I realize our current government position on controlled substances is highly hypocritical as we largely ignore the social, safety and health impacts of drinking and smoking.
I'm not comfortable voting for the full on legalization of MJ or crack personally though. Im not certain the gangsters would just disappear in a puff of smoke or melt like the wicked witch of the west because we legalize them.


We've already tried banning alcohol and that didn't work out too well. The same probably applies to marijuana. There's not a lot of point in making it illegal, at least at the personal use/production for personal use level.

Other drugs are not as clear simply because they have much more drastic effects, in some cases resulting in very quick and very powerful addiction, to where a user will be willing to engage in violent crime to get it when he can't afford any more.

Still, the tactic of treating this as a "war" has not been effective. Drugs coming in from other countries should be treated as a simple smuggling/customs problem until and unless the producers (i.e. cartels) start trying to challenge us directly - in which case they can find out very quickly that fighting the U.S. Army is a much harder proposition than fighting the Mexican Army.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 4:57 am 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Wwen wrote:
You know what works? Liberty. :D

But seriously, what is the "it" that you are saying works? Molding how people think?


Yes. Governments can successfully mold how people think.

I think we might differ on whether or not they should.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:59 am 
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Sounds good to me DE. I didn't mean to say we should outlaw alcohol or tobacco. I'm just saying I have problems with the legalizing MJ will get rid of gangbangers argument.

If you want to drink, that's your deal as long as you stay away from driving. If you want to smoke tobacco, be respectful of others and clean up after yourself and it's simply your problem. I could see toking ad being the same way if it were legal.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:13 pm 
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Rorinthas wrote:
Sounds good to me DE. I didn't mean to say we should outlaw alcohol or tobacco. I'm just saying I have problems with the legalizing MJ will get rid of gangbangers argument.

No, but they'll have a much less successful business model. Who sells illegal alcohol now?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:17 pm 
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Same people that sell bootleg cigarette's and DVDs I guess.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:18 pm 
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Moonshine (distilled) is still being made illegally, and still being sold, and people go blind from it occasionally because it didn't meet quality or ingredient safety standards. But it is a relatively small specialty market.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:23 pm 
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Has Cali seen a decrease in drug related violence since legalizing pot? If the evidence is out there I'm willing to concider it. So far all I've seen are arguments based on logic.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:29 pm 
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There have been a rash of pot shop robberies, but overall, no, probably a decrease, the numbers aren't in yet, its still too soon.

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