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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:03 pm 
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The King
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http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2011/06/13/ ... od=WSJBlog


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According to the latest Internal Revenue Service report, the number of Americans renouncing their U.S. citizenship (or terminating their long-term permanent residency) has increased nearly ninefold since 2008.

In the first quarter alone, 499 Americans expatriated through the IRS, meaning they probably won’t have to pay U.S. taxes anymore. That compares with a quarterly average of 384 in 2010. And 2010 marked a significant jump from 2009 and 2008, with quarterly averages of 186 and 58, respectively.

These are small numbers of course. With 300 million Americans, 499 expatriates is hardly a drop in the ocean. Yet the trend is almost a straight line up.

Why is this happening?

The IRS doesn’t tell us why people expatriate, or who they are or where they go. Lawyers say most are wealthy Americans who have expatriated to all manner of countries.

One argument is that they are leaving because of President Obama and the nation’s leaders.

“There is growing concern, particularly among the wealthy, about the future financial direction of the country,” said Paul L. Caron, Charles Hartsock Professor of Law at the University of Cincinnati College of Law. “This President constantly demonizes the wealthy, who undoubtedly are concerned about the tax policy that would emerge in 2012 if a re-elected Barack Obama, unconstrained by re-election concerns, finally confronts the budgetary train wreck that he has done so much to exacerbate.”

Other attorneys who specialize in helping the Americans expatriate say the reason is that the IRS is cracking down on overseas bank accounts and offshore income. There is a population of U.S. citizens who live overseas and may never have paid U.S. taxes on their non-U.S. earnings and non-U.S. accounts. Now that the IRS is enforcing the rules, with criminal penalties for scofflaws, the overseas residents would prefer to expatriate rather than pay.

“I think this is coming to the forefront because of offshore reporting and banker reporting issues,” said Peter Connors, a tax attorney in New York. “there is a price to being a citizen of the U.S. and at a certain point the price may not be worth it.”

Whatever the case, the numbers are clearly headed in the wrong direction.

Why do you think Americans are expatriating?



If more an more of the high earners leave...where does the tax burden fall?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:41 pm 
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The next group of earners who will be called "rich". Currently its 250k and up, once there aren't enough of them it will be 150k and up, and once they get taxed into not working or leaving it will be 80k and up...

Until the rich is anyone with a job because everyone else isn't working.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:51 pm 
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Comrades, we must get Khross's money quickly before he expatriates as well.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:33 pm 
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Uh.

The gist of that article is 'People who were avoiding their taxes by offshoring them, are now being forced to pay them by more stringent regulation, and are thus in some cases giving up citizenship to avoid it.'

So, if they were offshoring the wealth anyway, (or, by one reading, actually breaking the law) who cares? Whatever residual tax was being paid presumably wasn't significant.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:49 pm 
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SuiNeko wrote:
Uh.

The gist of that article is 'People who were avoiding their taxes by offshoring them, are now being forced to pay them by more stringent regulation, and are thus in some cases giving up citizenship to avoid it.'

So, if they were offshoring the wealth anyway, (or, by one reading, actually breaking the law) who cares? Whatever residual tax was being paid presumably wasn't significant.


Shhhh. Righteous indignation isn't interested in facts and logic!


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:16 pm 
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I've also heard that a lot of baby boomers have been planning on retiring overseas. Wonder if that has anything to do with it.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:17 pm 
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For the record, Khross expatriated years ago and left a Doombot in place to make it appear he's still here, so we wouldn't know or try to follow him.

In Latveria he doesn't have to pay taxes anyway, he is the government.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:20 pm 
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Khross moved to his private island years ago, which is a tax-free haven.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:55 pm 
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SuiNeko wrote:
Uh.

The gist of that article is 'People who were avoiding their taxes by offshoring them, are now being forced to pay them by more stringent regulation, and are thus in some cases giving up citizenship to avoid it.'

So, if they were offshoring the wealth anyway, (or, by one reading, actually breaking the law) who cares? Whatever residual tax was being paid presumably wasn't significant.


You think those people paid no significant amount of taxes on their wealth in the US outside of what they were able to off-shore?

You have lost your damn mind. European liberalism, and it's lack of second tier logic, never cease to amaze me.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:56 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
SuiNeko wrote:
Uh.

The gist of that article is 'People who were avoiding their taxes by offshoring them, are now being forced to pay them by more stringent regulation, and are thus in some cases giving up citizenship to avoid it.'

So, if they were offshoring the wealth anyway, (or, by one reading, actually breaking the law) who cares? Whatever residual tax was being paid presumably wasn't significant.


Shhhh. Righteous indignation isn't interested in facts and logic!


Think more. FanBoi less.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:29 pm 
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Still don't buy that the rich are being oppressively taxed. The top 10% of the country owns 50% of the total wealth, the highest proportion in history. If oppressive taxation really was taking them apart that percentage would be dropping.

Not to mention, you also would like me to believe that the politicians in Congress, who are both dishonest and composed entirely of rich people, and oppressively taxing themselves into oblivion. Right.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:16 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
Still don't buy that the rich are being oppressively taxed. The top 10% of the country owns 50% of the total wealth, the highest proportion in history. If oppressive taxation really was taking them apart that percentage would be dropping.


Taxation does not need to be at that level to be oppressive.

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Not to mention, you also would like me to believe that the politicians in Congress, who are both dishonest and composed entirely of rich people, and oppressively taxing themselves into oblivion. Right.


Why do you think our tax code is so unweildy? To create exceptions for people with the inside scope.

I don't buy that the rich are leaving the U.S. in meaningful numbers, but really, your basic premise is silly. Who cares what percentage of wealth the rich hold in a country where the poor can afford luxuries like a Wii?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:19 pm 
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I'm not making the argument that the seperation of wealth itself is bad, only that it doesn't make sense that the rich would be increasing their share of the wealth while at the same time taxation of the rich becomes significantly more oppressive. Are the rich significantly better at making money today than they were 50 years ago, that they can do so much better in spite of an increased tax burden?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:29 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
I'm not making the argument that the seperation of wealth itself is bad, only that it doesn't make sense that the rich would be increasing their share of the wealth while at the same time taxation of the rich becomes significantly more oppressive. Are the rich significantly better at making money today than they were 50 years ago, that they can do so much better in spite of an increased tax burden?


I'd say that yes, they are, or more correctly there's simply more ways to make money. Aside from that your argument is simply a non-sequiter; whether the percentage of wealth held by the rich is increasing is only vaguely related to whether they are being overtaxed. Overtaxation starts well short of where percentage of wealth held decreases.

If we did not have such enormous mechanisms for wealth redistribution in the tax system that counteract the tax for the non-rich; everyone would be overtaxed. If we ignore whether we should have income tax at all, the tax rate should be under 10% if we do have one. Any more than that is indefensible as confiscatory, and other means are needed to fulfill fiscal requirements.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:15 am 
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Couple things popped into my head with this.
#1 this is a byproduct of increased scrutiny of foreign bank accounts looking for terrorist financing. That's been years in coming. With deficit spending and tax breaks for almost a decade, there's only so many ways to maximize revenue. So now the Swiss have to play nice with the IRS or have themselves labelled terrorist enablers.

#2. Was there a any increase in expatriation rates when Reagan and the Democrat-controlled Congress wiped the exemption slate clean back in the '80s? This could possibly have increased tax burdens while simplifying the tax code. And with nearly 30 years to put new exemptions back into the tax code, it's just as messed up now as it was back then.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:34 am 
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Do you know what happens when an American Liberal opens a dictionary and looks at the definitions of "wealth" and "income"?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:19 am 
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:26 am 
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Comrades,

It's a trick question. Americans don't use dictionaries to look up words.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:45 am 
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Well the premise of the story follows logic. Businesses will relocate to a State that is more friendly. They will offshore their operations if it is politically and financially possible. So why not the individual? I got tired of local taxes being high so since I could, I relocated. Now I have no local or sales tax. Noticeable difference too. Why wouldn't those with the means do so?

If I had the finances and was facing the potential taxation and associated costs that are coming, I'd be looking to bail as well.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:59 am 
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Khross wrote:
Do you know what happens when an American Liberal opens a dictionary and looks at the definitions of "wealth" and "income"?


They declare the English language to be racist, and proceed to cross out and rewrite all definitions to fit whatever need they currently have.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:25 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
SuiNeko wrote:
Uh.

The gist of that article is 'People who were avoiding their taxes by offshoring them, are now being forced to pay them by more stringent regulation, and are thus in some cases giving up citizenship to avoid it.'

So, if they were offshoring the wealth anyway, (or, by one reading, actually breaking the law) who cares? Whatever residual tax was being paid presumably wasn't significant.


You think those people paid no significant amount of taxes on their wealth in the US outside of what they were able to off-shore?

You have lost your damn mind. European liberalism, and it's lack of second tier logic, never cease to amaze me.


First, that's kind of rude, though that's ceasing to amaze me.

Second, sure. I'm not familiar with the us tax system but until recently moving my personal income to a very lightly taxed regime and having the bulk untaxed (effectively, not income) was eminently possible.

If we're assuming these folk are leaving because of tax burden (and the article states we don't know because who/why is not revealed), it also seems reasonable to assume they are the same types who would minimise their personal tax burden prior to moving - which to date (again, the article talks about new enforcement) has not been problematic.

400, already minimised, personal tax burdens out of many millions.

So what's the idiotic part?

Is anything economically significant tied up in US business or assets going to change due to an individuals citizenship?

Note: defining economically significant as 'we should care' and not 'they should care'; if I'm earning 30k a year then a 15k tax burden is pretty damn significant, but the loss of 15k to the exchequer really isn't.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:46 pm 
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SuiNeko wrote:
Note: defining economically significant as 'we should care' and not 'they should care'; if I'm earning 30k a year then a 15k tax burden is pretty damn significant, but the loss of 15k to the exchequer really isn't.
Yah ain't makin' much sense here, Slim ...

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:14 pm 
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15k regarding my personal circumstances matters.

Regarding total tax take its less than a drop in the ocean.

From a perspective of 'do I care if net revenues are down 15k', no I do not

From a perspective of do I care if I reduce my tax burden by 15k, yes I do

For the purposes of this article, I care on the economic impact to net revenue - I.e I am not one of the 400, am not convinced of material net impact, and am scoping out the liberty/freedom questions of tax-as-theft in general


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