The Glade 4.0

Except, within the ethical, moral, and philosophical construct you continually espouse, Xequecal must act in good faith and with acceptance of the responsibilities of his actions. Even if he entertains an agreement with a bad actor, libertarianism does not absolve Xequecal of his responsibilities when reaching agreement with questionable parties.You have to demonstrate consequences intended by the U.S. Government not outlined in the rules and procedures for obtaining citizenship for this to be true. You cannot simply assume that the U.S. Government is acting in bad faith NOW because it has in the past. That's a hasty generalization.The Constitution fundamentally provides this disclaimer and provides a mechanism by which these wishes can be realized.Again, you must prove that the naturalization process is intentionally pursued in bad faith by the U.S. government and without disclosure of the condition Xequecal qualifies as duress: renunciation of foreign citizenship.

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You are a **** hypocrite.

Let it be said again he is voluntarily contemplating taking this oath. No one is forcing him to to do. Therefore it makes him guilty of fraud to get into a binding agreement with full intention and knowledge that he has no intention of honoring it.

I have reached a new level of disgust for a lot of people on this board in this thread.

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

This sums up my feelings as well.

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"If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me." - Alice R. Longworth

"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun." - Ash Williams

I don't have much respect for people whose word means so little to themselves...

Hamlet
Act I, Scene III

Polonius, at the end of one of his monologues

This above all: to thine ownself be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.
Farewell: my blessing season this in thee!

I'll add that it is much more comfortable in mind and soul, when you have accepted that truth and strive to live by it.

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The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones

I am sorry you don't understand that there can be no contract at all without full disclosure. He would be signing what amounts to nothing.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

I am not assuming anything Khross. It isn't acting in bad faith in the past - its acting in bad faith now. Every single day there are multiple infringements on our protected rights that the government continues, not only makes no steps to stop but continually justifies. It is in breach of the document that gives it authority the same one that regulates citizenship so how can it even possibly try to claim a sub-contract that is based on one its already violated?

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

You have to demonstrate the U.S. Government is intentionally acting in bad faith, Elmo. You also have to demonstrate that the negative condition which started this discussion is not commonly known.

It is patently evident you are letting your dislike of the U.S. government obviate any actual rational application of your principals in this case.

Again, Xequecal is making a known choice in light of already available information. Even if we grant all the things in your last post as true, what part of libertarianism denies Xequecal the right or ability to enter into the agreement anyway? And what part of libertarian absolves Xequecal of his own responsibility in acting?

Two wrongs do not make a right. The fact that you continue to advocate as such only demonstrates you refuse to accept your own philosophy in this instance.

The fact that you cannot abstract the situation means you are unwilling to consider the possiblity (indeed fact in this case) you happen to be wrong within your own moral and political philosophy.

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I have demonstrated that the U.S. government is intentionally acting in bad faith Khross.

It defended and excused itself in Korematsu, it has seized land just to make money in Kelo, it has violated its restrictions in Raich. It destroys free speech with its law against dancing on its property, it violates its oath in every single transaction involving dollars and if that isn't a constant enough violation for you then you have a standard which is not reasonable.

Let me ask you - do you believe there is a day that has gone by in the last 100 years where the US Government has not acted unconstitutionally?

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

Elmarnieh:

And none of that matters with regards to Xequecal's actions. Does the criminality of one party excuse the criminality of another? Yes or no? Does the criminality of the U.S. Government (as you see it) logically or rationally entitle Xequecal to commit fraud?

Your argument is fallacious and based solely in your emotional views regarding the state of the U.S. Government.

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I mean, you are aware you're entire argument is a tu quoque fallacy, right, Elmo?

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Kindly answer my question and I will answer yours.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

Does criminality require an excuse? Once again, someone is assuming that law has some inherent virtue or value merely by being law.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

Elmarnieh:

I already answered your question. In fact, I said ...

"We'll just assume everything you believe about the government to be true ..."

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Morality is what you think it is, just do what you want. Laws didn't even exist until relatively recently... is using my calculator moral?

Depends on what you are using it for...

Weight out the pros and cons hun. Do what you must based on your own morals/ethics/logic and not ours, as at the end of the day it will be you who will have to live with the consequences of that decision not anyone else on this board.

Most importantly, what ever your decision... be happy with it, and don't let us know.

How can entering into a voluntary agreement, a condition of which is to renounce all other citizenships, be considered coercion or duress on the basis that entering into such a contract requires renouncing all other citizenships?

Forget the self-aggrandizing talk about being bound to no moral code but ones own. Of course he can **** do it; there is no question about his ability insofar as the current legal framework clearly has some logical flaws.

What is being proposed here is a logical turd the size of The Executor. I'd rather watch Ren and Stimpy on acid with a nine iron sideways in my urethra than listen to a lot of what has been posted here.

This is where my logical disconnect occurs. How can a misguided muppet with a death wish for everyone who violates an oath they made to the country, claiming it to be Treason, turn around and say it is okay to violate an oath to this country, yet it is not Treason?

Hypocrisy, plain and simple. At least admit you are a hypocrite and be done with it. Stop pretending to be a defender of personal responsibility for your actions. If you really held the beliefs you proclaim you hold... how could someone willingly binding themselves to a contract that they are choosing to enter, not be abhorrent to you?

It is no secret I despise the government and those who are in it, and would love to see humanity burn... and this is precisely why. Corey Taylor said it best: People = ****

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

Then how can you possibly believe that the government is coming to the table with good faith? They obviously are not informing people of all their duplicitous actions (GunWalker being just one of them) so how can there be any contract when the fundamentals of a contract aren't in place?

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

I offer the same question to anyone who disagrees with me.

If you enter into a contract where it is known that the other party is going to violate the terms of the contract in such ways as there is no differentiation as if there was a contract - are you still bound to it morally?

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

If the person who makes the oath is granted citizenship, then the government has fulfilled it's side of the agreement.

The only contract violation is by the person that falsely swore the oath.

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In time, this too shall pass.

Just a quick reality check: I'd wager that every single person here has knowingly given a false sworn statement in order to defraud the government. Indeed, folks do it every year. Unless, that is, y'all actually report all your out-of-state purchases and pay the requisite sales and use taxes on them when you file your tax returns.

Citizenship comes with certain protections guaranteed in the Constitution does it not? If they are currently being violated how can this fulfill the agreement?

So you are seriously saying that only one entity of a contract is able to violate it? What about the government promoting citizenship's benefits that it not only has no intention of enforcing but continues to champion new ways to violate (wiretaps of overseas citizens and now assassination)?

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

The average American commits three federal felonies a day.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville