The Glade 4.0

How is this relevant? The military has considerably more authority to make you do whatever job it needs, and failing to do a job when required can have consequences that aren't present in pretty much any other field of work.

With almost any civilian occupation, some sort of equitable arrangement can be arrived at, even if that doesn't result in you never working a night shift. In the military, however, the enemy is not going to kindly arrange his schedule around yours.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

The Military also has it's own medical system, where they can evaluate and document any legitimate medical concerns.

If you have a permanent medical condition that prevents you from doing a certain job, they may allow you to retrain into a skill that you are a capable of performing with your given 'restrictions', however, as we were so often reminded, "The Needs Of The Air Force Come First!®".

If your condition warrants it, or you are otherwise unable to perform the normal duties expected of you, and it's determined to be permanently debilitating, then you would likely be separated under special (medical) circumstances (and rightfully so).

In order for this to happen, the military doctors would have to recognize and verify your 'condition' and be willing to write up a medical profile (duty restrictions) based on that.

When I was on active duty (think 1980's), if I went to a military doctor and told them shift work was making me tired and affecting me negatively, I would have probably been prescribed whatever the sleep aid of the day was, and maybe even a stimulant to keep me alert while on duty.

Interestingly, the Elemendorf Air Force Base hospital in Alaska was one of the first in the world to have a Light Therapy room to treat people with Seasonal Affective Disorder. This was mainly to combat the depressive effects of the long dark winters for people who weren't used to them than it was for shift workers.

They had those in Norway too. Helped a lot to be honest.

_________________
A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill

Yet another disorder many claimed didn't exist for a long time or indicated it 'wasn't really a disorder'

Yet another disorder that doesn't require a pill but has one to "fix" it.

_________________
A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill

Except I just provided an example where it does require a pill to fix it, and Midgen has corroborated my story by agreeing that he would have been prescribed a pill and would have been legally required to deal with his disorder by taking drugs.

As for coming to an "arrangement" with a civilian employer, sure, maybe if you have 10+ years of experience in a growing field. Then he has to do it because you're hard to replace. Absent that, he'll probably fire you immediately unless you manage to get it classified as a bona fide disability, (in which case he can't) and even then he'll probably be looking for an excuse. You think some guy doing shift work in like a box factory somewhere would get anything but laughed at in the best case and fired in the worst case if he complained about his sleep patterns? Really?

Erm.. Xeq, did you miss the part where I said I never sought treatment?

Working shifts is a pain the ***... Generally speaking you either deal with it, or find a different job.

Yes, you personally never sought treatment, but you could not have just "found a different job." You were in the military, if it came down to taking drugs or not doing your job you would have been required to take drugs.

Did you completely miss the part where they can retrain you for a different MOS?

In any case, you're still trying to use the military as an example. It's really not appropriate because the military has obligations towards its members, and they have obligations to it that have no equivalent elsewhere. You can't just "find a different job" because it's the military and you have a service obligation, nor can the military just get rid of you without making certain efforts to address your problems because of their own obligations, and because the jobs have to get done. Not "have to" in the sense of "We need to get X numbers of units produced to fill orders" but have to in the sense of "If we don't keep this position manned, someone might sneak in here and blow **** up" and "In here" might be anything from an observation post to the entire country.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

So to answer the questions, yes, Xeq did miss those parts.

_________________
A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill

I didn't miss that part. They'll retrain you if your condition is diagnosed as a real medical problem, which is what everyone here is arguing against - namely that being tired due to shift work shouldn't be classified as a medical problem. So no, they won't retrain you.

And the whole point is that the argument of, "don't take drugs, just find a different job" is bullshit. Even leaving the military aside, many people in this situation have families to support and can't just go find another job, assuming it's even possible to do so. Many, many people are lucky to have a job at all and if they quit for something like, "too tired due to shift work" they will never find another one.

Apparently you didn't read my post very carefully.

What I did was EXACTLY find a different job. Keep in mind we aren't talking about sleep issues here. I hurt my back, and the result of the medical profile change was that I retrained into comm/computers, where I could fulfill my duties without restriction.

Because we're not talking about just "being tired". "Being tired" is not a condition, nor a disorder, and that's the entire problem highlighted in the OP. Being unable to adapt to shift work even to the degree other people are, or to the point you're a hazard, is a condition. So yes, they will retrain you.



Then you have to suck it down for a while. "Being tired" is not the problem. Lots of people are tired even without working odd hours. Your examples are all just replete with your typical assumptions about what the working world is actually like; more of a discussion of your own mistrust of practcally any employers than actual conditions.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

You posted on the first page of the thread that you found a different job, when you were in your mid-40s. That is a completely different situation from the hypothetical 1980s military situation you were talking about on this page. In the original situation, you were (I assume) out of the military and had the freedom to quit your job, and you were also in your mid-40s, which means you had a lot of experience so you could negotiate with your employer for different hours.

There are whole classes of professions where you are flat out expected to work the night shift for several years once you get out of school. If you do that for a year and find out you can't hack it, they're not going to move you to the day shift ahead of "schedule." You find a way to deal with it and if that means taking drugs, that's what you do.



I don't disagree with this, but many people were saying essentially, "you should never have to take drugs, just find a different job!" which is what I had an issue with. Of course you don't want to medicate for the rest of your life, but "sucking it down for awhile" is going to mean taking drugs if you can't hack it without doing so.

Yet another non sequitur.



Who's saying this?

_________________
"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

The strawman obviously. He seems to be making a lot of arguments in place of actual posters.

_________________
A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill

You can't schedule this kind of timing ... Bad Driving is a treatable disease

&@#&*@*&*!

_________________
Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut