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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:27 pm 
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This might end up in Hellfire, but I'm going to start it off here anyway ...
Google search results for "unemployed need not apply"

Tons of articles on the subject, dated between June of 2010 and June of 2011. Here's just one:
Spoiler:
As if finding work weren't hard enough, a federal agency warns that some employers are excluding jobless workers from consideration for openings.

People testified before the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) on Wednesday about what some said is a growing trend of employers refusing to consider hiring the unemployed.

The practice has surfaced in electronic and print postings with language such as "unemployed applicants will not be considered" or "must be currently employed."

"Excluding unemployed workers from employment opportunities is unfair to workers, bad for the economy, and potentially violates basic civil-rights protections because of the disparate impact on older workers, workers of color, women and others," Christine Owens, executive director of the National Employment Law Project, testified.

Several examples of such help-wanted ads were offered: A Texas electronics company said online that it would "not consider/review anyone NOT currently employed regardless of the reason"; an ad for a restaurant-manager position in New Jersey said applicants must be employed; a phone manufacturer's job announcement said "No Unemployed Candidates Will Be Considered At All," according to Helen Norton, associate professor at the University of Colorado School of Law.

Even if the companies pull the language from their ads, many still discriminate against the unemployed, Owens said.

Evidence about how widespread the practice may be is sketchy. But reports of it have caught the attention of regulators, lawmakers and advocates for the unemployed.

In one prominent report last year, an advertisement from Sony Ericsson, a global phone manufacturer that was recruiting workers for a new Georgia facility, was restricted to those currently employed.

The company removed the restriction after media publicity.

Members of Congress contacted the Department of Labor and the EEOC to see whether the practice violates federal employment laws against discrimination.

While the unemployed aren't a protected class under civil-rights laws, the practice could be legally problematic if it has a disparate or discriminatory effect on groups of job seekers subject to civil-rights protections.

Several witnesses testified at EEOC headquarters in Washington, D.C., that excluding the unemployed from job openings could disproportionately affect African Americans, Hispanics, people with disabilities and older workers — all federally protected groups whose jobless rates are well-above the U.S. average.

Blacks and Hispanics are particularly vulnerable, said William Spriggs, the Labor Department's assistant secretary for policy, because they represent a large share of unemployed workers and a smaller portion of those with jobs.

Although the nationwide unemployment rate is 9 percent, the jobless rate is 15.7 percent among blacks and 11.9 percent among Hispanics, according the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

"When employers exclude the unemployed from the applicant pool, they are more likely to be excluding Latinos and African Americans," Spriggs testified.

Most seem to agree that the overwhelming majority of job postings don't contain such language. James Urban, a partner at Jones Day law firm in Pittsburgh who counsels large employers, testified that he's never dealt with an employer who wouldn't hire the jobless.

Listings that exclude unemployed applicants would violate terms-of-use policies against discrimination at Monster.com, which posts hundreds of thousands of job openings.

"We would flag that as a violation of our policy," company spokesman Matthew Henson said. He said the website screened listings for such problems.

While jobless applicants might have "skills that are stale or obsolete" compared with employed candidates, screening them out isn't effective because it limits the pool of qualified workers, said Fernan Cepero, state director of the New York State Society for Human Resource Management. He said the practice probably wasn't widespread because "the stakes involved are too high for that."

But Owens, of the National Employment Law Project, said her group routinely heard from older workers who had been rejected for consideration because they weren't employed.

A 53-year-old Illinois woman who was laid off after 19 years as an information-technology supervisor said a recruiter wouldn't send her on a job interview when he realized she hadn't worked for a year.

A 44-year-old woman lost out on a pharmaceutical-sales position because the job required that she be currently employed in the industry or have left it within six months.

Owens said that under the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967, it was illegal for employers to use practices that "limit, segregate or classify" individuals in ways that limited or denied employment opportunities based on race, gender, color, religion, ethnicity or age. Practices that seem nondiscriminatory could violate these laws if they have a disparate impact on members of these protected classes.

The commission will gather more information about the issue and might, in time, provide guidance to employers about the practice and suggestions on how to avoid any legal conflicts in job postings.
"As if finding work weren't hard enough", indeed.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:24 am 
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There are too many applicants for not enough positions, and in a times like these, when companies are cutting back and laying off they need to look for bright line indicators when trying to make hiring decisions from an absurdly larger than normal hiring pool while using fewer HR positions (and therefore man-hours) to do it.

This leads employers to make these decisions after using base-line eliminators to narrow the pool based on easily distinguishable risk factors, like "current employability" and "credit risk".

It's all part of the market, and it's nessecary.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:33 am 
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My credit rating has no bearing on how good an employee I am. Nor does it have a bearing on how good a driver I am. The only thing my credit rating says about me is that I have shitty credit. Don't loan me money.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:39 am 
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It speaks to honesty, integrity, punctuality, willingness to honor a contract, and overall responsibility.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:41 am 
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but it is an indication of how responsible and reliable you are, in a somewhat indirect/general sort of way


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:42 am 
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Rynar wrote:
It speaks to honesty, integrity, punctuality, willingness to honor a contract, and overall responsibility.


No. No it doesn't. It speaks to whether or not I can pay a bill on time. Has nothing to do with whether or not I do my job well, show up on time, don't steal ****, etc.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:48 am 
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Müs wrote:
Rynar wrote:
It speaks to honesty, integrity, punctuality, willingness to honor a contract, and overall responsibility.


No. No it doesn't. It speaks to whether or not I can pay a bill on time. Has nothing to do with whether or not I do my job well, show up on time, don't steal ****, etc.


Yes. Yes it does. To a mathematic certainty. It is used in every manner of underwriting. You don't have to like it, but it breaks down as a bright line indicator.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:54 am 
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Rynar wrote:
Müs wrote:
Rynar wrote:
It speaks to honesty, integrity, punctuality, willingness to honor a contract, and overall responsibility.


No. No it doesn't. It speaks to whether or not I can pay a bill on time. Has nothing to do with whether or not I do my job well, show up on time, don't steal ****, etc.


Yes. Yes it does. To a mathematic certainty. It is used in every manner of underwriting. You don't have to like it, but it breaks down as a bright line indicator.


Except that it doesn't. It honestly has no bearing on how I drive a car, nor how good I am at work.

Credit rating should be used for one thing. Credit. That's it. Period. End of discussion.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:56 am 
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being punctual is a big part of professionalism, though.

it doesn't matter how good of a driver you are, nor how amazing you are at what you do if you don't make their deadlines and they can't rely on you consistently


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:00 am 
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bale wrote:
being punctual is a big part of professionalism, though.

it doesn't matter how good of a driver you are, nor how amazing you are at what you do if you don't make their deadlines and they can't rely on you consistently


Whether or not I got into financial difficulty and had issues making payments to a credit card on time has no bearing on work performance.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:19 am 
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I understand the risk in hiring people with bad credit...but how the **** do you fix your credit if no one will hire you? It's kinda shitty. I know "you shouldn't have gotten into that situation to begin with" but **** happens. People get fired, businesses go under, the economy tanks. Oh well.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:41 am 
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Rynar wrote:
It speaks to honesty, integrity, punctuality, willingness to honor a contract, and overall responsibility.


Mine points to the fact that my X was completely unwilling to pay her half of the bills when we separated, through no fault of my own. Unfortunately, if all you had was my credit score you wouldn't have any idea of the circumstances that caused it.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:43 am 
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The argument of credit rating showing how punctual and professional an applicant is might be valid and rational, if not for the numerous counter-examples of people with dodgy credit ratings who show up to work on time every day and perform at a satisfactory or exemplary level. You might wish to think it means something, especially if you have a good credit rating and are looking for further reasons to pat yourself on the back, but in the end it's nothing more than an additional arbitrary means of discriminating against people.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:02 am 
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it's a decidedly indirect and somewhat vague indication of an applicant's desirability, but it does have some bearing on employability

the hiring process right now is not just about evaluating an applicant's work potential. there are costs and risks involved with each new hire, and it's in the employer's best interest to find the best value from amongst the applicant pool. I'm not saying that measuring employability based on credit score is a fair method, but it is a crude method of reducing the number of applications that employers have to look at before they have to invest time and money in screening and then interviewing people

from a very conservative view point, credit history reflects how responsible a person is financially and how sound their judgement has been in their personal finances. take out the financial aspect and juxtapose those two traits into a professional setting. they are two traits that most employers value very highly

I'll admit that it doesn't take into account sheer bad luck with the economy and shitty exes, though. it's not a fair measurement in that respect, but hey that only includes people affected by the economy and divorcee's. that's just.. like.. what.. the few million out of a job and the purportedly 50% of all married adults that are like.. what.. 60% of all adults in the US? :p


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:48 am 
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Corolinth wrote:
The argument of credit rating showing how punctual and professional an applicant is might be valid and rational, if not for the numerous counter-examples of people with dodgy credit ratings who show up to work on time every day and perform at a satisfactory or exemplary level. You might wish to think it means something, especially if you have a good credit rating and are looking for further reasons to pat yourself on the back, but in the end it's nothing more than an additional arbitrary means of discriminating against people.


Poor performance at work has a considerable overlap with poor credit when looking at large pools or numbers. Your credit score is used in underwriting for just about every type of insurance under the sun. Some companies use it as a primary factor. Again, you don't have to like it, but the math is real and when companies have too many applicants for not enough positions and not enough staff to sort through them all, they work as bright line indicators to narrow the pool by risk.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:53 am 
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Rynar wrote:
There are too many applicants for not enough positions, and in a times like these, when companies are cutting back and laying off they need to look for bright line indicators when trying to make hiring decisions from an absurdly larger than normal hiring pool while using fewer HR positions (and therefore man-hours) to do it.

Ironically, though, it's precisely in times of high unemployment when credit scores (and current employment status) will be least effective at predicting applicants' personal reliability because general economic conditions over which individuals have no control are more of a factor than usual.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:00 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
The argument of credit rating showing how punctual and professional an applicant is might be valid and rational, if not for the numerous counter-examples of people with dodgy credit ratings who show up to work on time every day and perform at a satisfactory or exemplary level. You might wish to think it means something, especially if you have a good credit rating and are looking for further reasons to pat yourself on the back, but in the end it's nothing more than an additional arbitrary means of discriminating against people.


There's always counter examples, but why does an employer care about these? He's using whatever means are even remotely justifiable to reduce the applicant pool. Credit score is an indicator of character. I would have admitted that right after college, when I made a strategic decision to trash my score in an effort to get through college (I subsequently paid everyone off and now have an exemplary score). I made an agreement that I had no intention of honoring within the terms agreed upon.

I know employers that don't hire if you have convictions. Lots of them. We all know that circumstances can get people busted for dumb **** (marijuana, etc). There's good people with convictions. It's not perfect but it's an indicator of character accross the population.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:31 pm 
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The problem is it's an employers market. There are lots of applicants per position. So employers afford to knock off a couple of good possibles with a base line check in order to weed though their growing pools. Right now they can have it all.

It sounds like bad press but I'm not convinced that unemployed or having a poor credit score are EoE protected status points.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:15 pm 
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EEOC (generally) prohibits discrimination based on:

* Age
* Disability
* Equal Pay/Compensation
* Genetic Information
* National Origin
* Pregnancy
* Race/Color
* Religion
* Retaliation
* Sex
* Sexual Harassment

Anything else is fair game.

I used to work for a state senator. I could have been not hired or fired for merely disagreeing with him.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:14 pm 
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Pretty much.

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