The Glade 4.0

What voting Vindi? The problem now is that the Republicans have stepped away from the table, and aren't even having serious conversations with the other side.

Frankly, it's the same bullshit they pulled with the healthcare bill.

I don't have a problem at all with any legislator voting their concience. Where I get frustrated is that they aren't even coming to the table to negotiate, but just laying out demands ahead of negotiation, which basically make negotiation impossible.

Now this isn't to say that the Dems don't do this too, and it pisses me off when they do it too. But in this particular instance, that has been far far less on the Democratic side.

Wait ...

Seriously?

Did you just post that, Aizle?

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Sometimes things really are that simple. Stop being so blind.

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

Aizle:
Voting on the bills that have been presented to the legislative bodies.

Can you show me something where it's reported that they aren't "coming to the table"? I showed you where they are. Did you read the story I linked?

People speak of "good faith negotiations", yet it's more backroom, closed door smoke and mirrors like we saw with Obamacare. Negotiations are going on, the media just gets you all in a tizzy when they say: "So and so walked away from the negotiation table..." Consider the fact that people need to be "at the table", negotiating, before they can "walk away from the table", and they're walking away every day - from both sides of the aisle.

The same bullshit they pulled with the healthcare bill? Really, seriously? What bullshit its that? Locking doors? Using shadowy machinations to get the result they desire without putting it to a vote? Not reading the proposal? Not allowing enough time for it to be read? Or did you mean the R's? What did the R's do besides "vote their conscience"?

You say it pisses you off when the D's do it too, yet I don't recall you letting us know that. You sure don't hold back when it's the R's, why do so when it's the D's?

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

The obvious example Vindi is Boehner's 180 degree change from working with the other legislative leaders with the President and seemingly being close to a deal, but then completely walking away after apparently being pounced on by tea party members.

Soooooo...when the dems listen to their voters(people like you) and push for things that most Americans don't want, all good. But when the pubs listen to their voters(like you say Boehner is doing) then it's all terrible.

Do you actually read some of the things you post? Is your middle name double standard?

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

Can you provide some links or dates to validate this statement? How is it that negotiations continue after he "completely walked away". I'd be interested to see a story about him being "pounced" on by "tea party members". I'd like to know what his position was before and after this "180 degree change".

I can make the same statements about Obama and add that he has clearly stated that there are positions he holds that are non-negotiable that will cause him to veto a bill out of hand.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

How in the hell is blocking a bill from even coming up for a vote in the Senate NOT obstructionist??

Um, what? He discovered, after presenting the plan to his side of the aisle, that they weren't on board. He could no longer negotiate in good faith, if it was something that could not be passed.

I get that, then you come back to the table with that info and continue negotiating. But what happened instead is that he went to to the media and began the whole political circus. Had there been ANY good faith in trying to reach a solution, you'd think he would have returned to discussions with the President and the other political leaders.

In the end, I think this whole thing and the way the Republicans have handled it will backfire on them in the next elections. Should be interesting to watch.

I thought Obama would win easy with no clear front runner for the other side, but the jobs and economy are going to eat Obama alive. If the pubs want to win, all the need to do is stay the course on this issue and Obama will be gone the way of Jimmy Carter.

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

There's a ton out there, and if you've been listening to any news source during this you should have heard it ad nauseum.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/23/us/po ... iscal.html

Saying, "We have enough votes to do X without you, so we aren't going to compromise," is different than saying, "We don't have enough votes to do X without you, but we do have enough to prevent Y from happening, so we're going to prevent Y unless you give us what we want on X." The latter strikes me as more of a hardball tactic than the former, but that's fine. The tactic only becomes objectionable when preventing Y would itself be objectionable. In other words, if a given action is wrong, then so is threatening to take that action unless you get your way on something else. Threatening to trigger an economic crisis by preventing a debt ceiling increase falls into that category, in my opinion.

The Dems lack the party discipline to be as effectively obstructionist as the Reps; they just aren't as good at holding the line. More than that, though, I think it's fairly clear that there's an ideological-enthusiasm gap (and I mean that in a non-pejorative way) that favors the Reps at this point in time. Beyond the various surface debates over policy, the fact is that the basic model of contemporary government and culture in the US - i.e., a broad social safety net, significant government involvement in the economy, redistributive taxes and services, increasingly flexible social norms, etc. - are all accepted as legitimate by the vast majority of Dems, whereas many Reps (particularly the most active and influential - hello Tea Party; hello Focus on the Family) define themselves in opposition to that underlying model. The result is a Democratic party that sees its role as managing, tweaking and building on the existing infrastructure and a Repuclican party that sees its role as fighting to fundamentally change that infrastructure. The former mindset is, almost by definition, more incrementalist and thus more open to compromise than the latter.

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

Nitefox, who said that ?

Nowhere in that article does it say anything about being pounced on by "tea party members", rather, it used the generic and much more broad "rank and file". The article continues by citing sources that say Obama changed the proposal after he and Boehner had reached "consensus on some major issues." I don't see that as a "180 degree change" on Boehner's part, I see that as reacting to an abrupt redefinition of the proposals.

I guess if that's what is causing you to blame the R's, this should create the same level of anger, eh? President Obama abruptly walks out of debt ceiling talks



That would be Barry-O.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

Google-Fu says Barack Obama said it in 2006...http://www.huffingtonpost.com/social/TheSheeple/debt-ceiling-talks-collapse_n_907446_99238690.html

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"Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Jesus of Nazareth

As for what the R's have presented (actual proposals and bills) vs what the D's have presented:

Chuck Todd: "Release your plan"
Jay Carney: "We've shown a lot of leg"
Todd: "Why not just release it?"
Carney: "You need it written down?"

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

I think Carney is angling for Bagdag Bob's old spot.

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

Haven't heard the MSM quote this(shocked, I know) so thought I'd put it out there. Would be interesting to see the local libs spi...er take on it.

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

"Our debt is more unsustainable than my rap career..."

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

Dems = Want to tell you that everything will be okay because they know what you want as they ask you to cradle the balls gently while they orally treat you like you are Sasha Grey.

Reps = Want to tell you that everything will be okay because they know what you want as they ask you to cradle the balls gently while they orally treat you like you are Sasha Grey.

why/how has anyone failed to understand this yet?

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

Because you and I are the only ones in this thread that know who Sasha Grey is?

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Buckle your pants or they might fall down.

No you're not.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."