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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:00 pm 
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adorabalicious
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RangerDave wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
Emotion is not a justification for legislation. Its not a leg of an argument of law. Important decisions should not be based on it. Its bad form for anyone in government to seek support from an emotional point of view while also trying to muddle the rational one.

I disagree. Emotion is an important and inescapable element of the justification for legislation. Emotion helps determine what our goals are; rationality helps determine the best way to achieve them. True, sometimes emotion can be destructive, and destructive emotions may lead to destructive legislation, but that's not an argument against all emotion - we needn't throw the baby out with the bath water. And truthfully, I'm not sure you actually disagree. After all, the desire for personal liberty is an emotion, and the system of governance that espoused both the possibility and the benefits of an emotionless approach to goverment is the one you most oppose - Communism.


I can and have made a pragmatic argument for liberty. I don't find it to be the most important one however it is as sound.

And there is a large difference between moral philosophy and emotion. When I talk about a moral philosophy I explain meanings and terms and the entire context is a rational one. When Obama was talking he wasn't trying to appeal to appeal to anything rational but trying to engender anger and pity in order to cloud reason.

If you need emotion as a distraction or use it to obfuscate facts you're doing a disservice to yourself and your audience.

Communism is the absence of government - its a form of communally agreed anarchy. Read Marx.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:01 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Did his proposed solution tend to the problems his mother was having?
I ask again.

No, it would not have helped his mother, but, as I keep pointing out, her experience was essentially no different than the experiences of the people that his proposed solution will help, which is why he cited it as part of the motivation for his proposal. He wanted to help other sick people avoid having to fight with insurance companies over coverage so they wouldn't have to go through the same kind of stress and worry his mother did.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:02 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Uncle Fester wrote:
One of the few, if only things I will give Obama credit for, is the devotion he has in his followers, to the end, teeth barred into the final argument. His way or the high way! With him against his enemies. Very few politicians inspire that kind of loyalty. I am a hard core RP supporter and I argue with points and decisions. Blind loyalty is incredible and scary to witness.

You don't read many liberal commentators do you?



Your assumption that all liberal commentators are Obama followers is flawed. They slavish loyalists exist. Those who follow a progressive ideology regardless of persona are obviously not among his followers.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:04 pm 
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adorabalicious
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RangerDave wrote:
Rynar wrote:
Did his proposed solution tend to the problems his mother was having?
I ask again.

No, it would not have helped his mother, but, as I keep pointing out, her experience was essentially no different than the experiences of the people that his proposed solution will help, which is why he cited it as part of the motivation for his proposal. He wanted to help other sick people avoid having to fight with insurance companies over coverage so they wouldn't have to go through the same kind of stress and worry his mother did.



Um no.

His proposed solution does not help people pay their deductible. He fought against something that he knew was a losing case for his mother. It was clearly spelled out in the contract - he wanted the money not because it was owed to his mother but because it was money and he might have gotten it.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:16 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
NephyrS wrote:
Had he used it in the sense of "I had to go through something similar, and I understand how hard it can be" that would be one thing...But he used it as a direct anecdote for why the system needed to be changed, in the sense of "my mother suffered because of this flaw in the system, I have personal experience with pre-existing conditions and health insurance, therefore I am arguing that it should be changed".

I take your point, NephyrS, but I think the latter interpretation requires a presumption of bad faith, and even then, calling it a lie would be making a mountain out of a molehill, in my opinion. In my view, it's like listening to a veteran advocating for some change in our policy toward Afghanistan and then calling him a liar because he tells a personal anecdote about what it felt like to be in combat without pausing to note that he served in Iraq.


But in this case, it wasn't that he didn't pause to note that it was in Iraq... He specifically said it was in Afghanistan.

It wasn't the listener who had to apply what was said to Health Insurance instead of Disability Insurance (an omission filled in by implication), but rather he explicitly stated that her health insurance would not cover her due to a pre-existing condition- an explicit untruth.

Was it just an omission, I would find your point easier to take, but as it is, it seems more analogous to a veteran telling an anecdote from Iraq and saying it happened in Afghanistan.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:22 pm 
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Jeebus RD, are you really being serious with this?


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:24 pm 
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Nitefox wrote:
TheRiov wrote:
nitefox wrote:
you can't see the obvious lie he told to sell a huge piece of legislation to a country that didn't want it in
the first place. Fanatical isn't strong enough of a discription.


Don't Keep repeating this lie. Its not that the 'country didn't want it' Even two years later, its about 50/50. What you mean is "I don't want", but its disingenuous to claim that the 'country didn't want it' -- at the time, a majority did.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/146729/One-Y ... e-Law.aspx



Not repeating a lie(unlike the pesident).

http://www.gallup.com/poll/127382/Ameri ... table.aspx

Most viewed it as a bad thing.

And we have many polls stating most folks would like to see it repealed.



Technically less than most. 50.0001% would be most. You don't even get to that. The point is that you're acting like 80% of the population disliked the bill. Its not even close to that. Its about evenly split---and that's largely after a HUGE public opinion campaign waged by the Right and by lobbying groups.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:30 pm 
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The King
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49% bad...45% good. Seems 49% is more wouldn't you agree? All I said was most. And most it was. What are you having a hard time understanding TheRiov?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:33 pm 
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Don't confuse "Most" with "more"


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:34 pm 
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The King
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TheRiov wrote:
Don't confuse "Most" with "more"



I'm not.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:38 pm 
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and yet you use the two interchangeably just two posts back. Funny that.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:39 pm 
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Nitefox wrote:
TheRiov wrote:
Don't confuse "Most" with "more"



I'm not.


Yes, yes you are.

49% vs 45% means that "more" people dislike the bill than like the bill.

It does not mean that "most" people dislike the bill, which would generally require at least a simple majority.

Meriam Webster wrote:
most [məʊst]
determiner
1.
a. a great majority of; nearly all most people like eggs

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:42 pm 
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The King
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NephyrS wrote:
Nitefox wrote:
TheRiov wrote:
Don't confuse "Most" with "more"



I'm not.


Yes, yes you are.

49% vs 45% means that "more" people dislike the bill than like the bill.

It does not mean that "most" people dislike the bill, which would generally require at least a simple majority.



Well it certainly is a good indicator I think. Certainly doesn't make me a liar(I forgive you for that TheRiov, carry on).

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:44 pm 
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Actually, he didn't say you were a liar. He asked you to stop repeating a lie.

To say you were a liar, he would have had to think you were intentionally repeating something you knew to be incorrect, his later assertions seem to support that he in fact thought that you were incorrectly analyzing it.

But yes, saying "most of the country doesn't want it" is in fact a lie when the statistics show that only 49% of the country doesn't want it.

I'm not a fan of the healthcare bill by any means, but twisting statistics to favor your position does more harm than good, in my opinion.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:48 pm 
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The King
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Fine. MORE Americans don't/didn't want it than do. Does that make more sense? That's what I was getting at. I forget how anal this board can be.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:53 pm 
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Nitefox wrote:
I forget how anal this board can be.


Considering this thread: Pure. Comedy. Gold.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:54 pm 
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I do find it funny how people only seem to get fed up with people on the board being "picky" or "anal" when someone else calls them on something, but it's just business as usual when they're the ones requiring others to be "specific" and "correct".

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:56 pm 
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The King
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Aizle wrote:
Nitefox wrote:
I forget how anal this board can be.


Considering this thread: Pure. Comedy. Gold.



Right on time! You left to let others do the heavy lifting for you in this thread then came back just to take a pot shot. Typical, predictable Aizle.

Only thing is, Obama actually did lie and misrepresent the thruth. Now I know the liberal handbook tells you stay the course even though you are wrong, but free your mind Aizle! Take off the blinders! Stop drinking the Kool-Aid!

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:59 pm 
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The King
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NephyrS wrote:
I do find it funny how people only seem to get fed up with people on the board being "picky" or "anal" when someone else calls them on something, but it's just business as usual when they're the ones requiring others to be "specific" and "correct".



Intent though. I knew what I was getting at. I wasn't trying to fool anyone. I was wrong in how I said things but it doesn't really change the meaning of the point I was stating.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:03 pm 
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NephyrS wrote:
I do find it funny how people only seem to get fed up with people on the board being "picky" or "anal" when someone else calls them on something, but it's just business as usual when they're the ones requiring others to be "specific" and "correct".
That's just the liberal academia brainwashing.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:06 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
NephyrS wrote:
I do find it funny how people only seem to get fed up with people on the board being "picky" or "anal" when someone else calls them on something, but it's just business as usual when they're the ones requiring others to be "specific" and "correct".
That's just the liberal academia brainwashing.


This post confuses me, seeing as neither of the main participants in the incident in question could be considered liberal.

I propose "That's just the liberal/conservative/libertarian academia brainwashing" instead.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:46 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
If human means ignoring logic in order to fall under the emotional appeal I hope I never become human

Humans are primarily emotional beings. Virtually all of what makes us individuals has an emotional base.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:17 pm 
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Grrr... Eat your oatmeal!!
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Elmarnieh wrote:
If human means ignoring logic in order to fall under the emotional appeal I hope I never become human


You are not a god damned vulcan homie.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:32 pm 
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Of course he isn't, such a thing would be illogical. Vulcans are not real.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:36 pm 
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darksiege wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
If human means ignoring logic in order to fall under the emotional appeal I hope I never become human


You are not a god damned vulcan homie.


That is so going in my signature.

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