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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:04 am 
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So we need government to save companies from bad employees? That's a great precedent.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:32 am 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
So we need government to save companies from bad employees? That's a great precedent.


LOL. Nice leap of logic.

You said it wasn't possible to increase MPG without reducing hauling capacity, I showed you why you were wrong.
You asked why everyone wasn't using aftermarket systems, I told you.

Neither of those contribute to this leap in logic that you've made. The changes are being put in actually from a request from the truck manufacturers.

http://news.opb.org/article/truck_indus ... gulations/

Quote:
Ron Medford, deputy administrator of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, says the impetus for the rules came in part from an unlikely source: the industry asked the Environmental Protection Agency to create them.

Truck and engine manufacturers wanted to avoid multiple rules. But Congress asked the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration to come up with one set. And the Supreme Court told the EPA to regulate greenhouse gas emissions. California also wanted to regulate global warming pollution from trucks.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:38 am 
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Aizle wrote:
You said it wasn't possible to increase MPG without reducing hauling capacity, I showed you why you were wrong.

Err...that's not, in fact, what you did. You merely claimed he was wrong. You haven't shown anything.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:48 am 
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Aizle wrote:
There are a number of aftermarket systems that have significant effects on MPG, which do not affect towing capacity at all.


Please share...


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:00 am 
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shuyung wrote:
Err...that's not, in fact, what you did. You merely claimed he was wrong. You haven't shown anything.
Only people with unpopular opinions are required to source their work ... so ... Source Please!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:07 am 
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Midgen wrote:
Aizle wrote:
There are a number of aftermarket systems that have significant effects on MPG, which do not affect towing capacity at all.

Please share...

Image

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:18 am 
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shuyung wrote:
Aizle wrote:
You said it wasn't possible to increase MPG without reducing hauling capacity, I showed you why you were wrong.

Err...that's not, in fact, what you did. You merely claimed he was wrong. You haven't shown anything.


Fair enough, bad choice of words.

http://www.hydrogen-generators-usa.com/ ... rator.html

http://www.thetruckersreport.com/making ... efficient/

The second link has multiple examples of how to make them more efficient.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:23 am 
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Aizle wrote:
Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Okay. So why isn't everybody using them?


The short answer is because the Transportation Industry is the poster child for penny wise and pound foolish. These systems cost some significant money up front, but pay out dividends over a few years, and most transportation management is short sighted enough that they don't plan that far, or don't know how.

The long answer:

Ground transportation is loosely grouped into 2 major areas. Private fleets and LTL carriers.

Private fleets are large companies that own their own trucks and manage their own distribution. Think Walmart, most large grocery chains, etc. These are the companies that have the best chance of using one of these products and a lot of the smarter one's do. However, the problem is that these companies are in the business of selling food or other products. Their transportation departments are cost centers and therefore the red-headed stepchild of the organization. They are always screamed at to spend less money. Additionally, the old joke is that the definition of a trans manager is a driver with a bad back. Meaning, that the majority of the transporation management doesn't have any management experience, or business experience. They have gotten to where they are by working harder, not smarter more often than not. So their typical day is running around from fire to fire trying to keep the wheels from falling off. It is extremely hard to get people in that type of environment with that type of background to look at anything beyond what happens tomorrow or next week, much less try and do a cost benefit analysis and present it to their senior leadership for a large capital project.

LTL carriers are true transportation companies. They exist to haul freight. Think Schneider, Roadway, UPS, etc. These companies don't do much with these types of systems because they bill their customers for the shipping costs. The comments about trans managers apply here as well, and in general there is less cost reduction pressure on the LTL markets because they just pass it through to their customer.

But really, the biggest reason why technologies like this aren't used in the trans industry is because it is probably one of the most conservative industries in the world. Truckers DO NOT LIKE CHANGE. Seriously, any change is bad, even if the end results are good. Drivers and by extension trans managers often have to be drug kicking and screaming into the 21st century when it comes to any kind of technology.


That is a gross mischaracterization of the industry. The majority of truckers are owner-operators who contract on to haul a load from point-a to point-b. Typically they own their rig and one or two trailers but spend a significant portion of their time hauling non-owned trailers for whatever carrier they are contracted to. If you pay close attention on the highway you'll clearly notice Fed-Ex trucks because the trailers are emblazoned with the company logo but if you start watching you'll see no uniformity amongst the pulling units and if you care to check you'll notice they all have their own USDOT #s.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:35 am 
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300 HP vehicles are getting 30 MPG in real world conditions today. That's pretty impressive and due totally to technological improvements. It'll cost though. Tech don't come cheap.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:48 am 
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Aizle wrote:
Fair enough, bad choice of words.

http://www.hydrogen-generators-usa.com/ ... rator.html

http://www.thetruckersreport.com/making ... efficient/

The second link has multiple examples of how to make them more efficient.

In response to your first link:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/al ... ge/4276846

In response to your second link:
There are numbers on that page, but they are meaningless.

What else do you have?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:57 am 
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Hehe. Beat me to the punch, shuyung, though I was operating on my own high school chemistry knowledge, without the Popular Mechanics to back me up.

I mean, I was reading incredulously going, "are they seriously suggesting you electrolyze your own hydrogen, and then burn it on the spot? And this is somehow a net gain?"

That's pretty awesome snake oil.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:04 pm 
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Internal combustion engines run around 18-20% efficiency. The Theoretical upper limit of standard internal combustion engines is ~33% IIRC.

In theory, (and practice) engineering CAN improve fuel efficiency without reducing power. It doesn't always cost more to make more efficient structures.. that's a fallacy.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:10 pm 
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shuyung wrote:
In response to your second link:
There are numbers on that page, but they are meaningless.

I agree that the hydrogen thing is pretty pie-in-the-sky, but what's wrong with the suggestions at the second link? They all seem like modifications that would be fairly easy to adopt, and I know I've seen them all in use on at least some trucks.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:15 pm 
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What is the correlation between reduced drag and increased fuel economy? By how many percentage points must I reduce drag in order to increase fuel economy by 1%? Do you understand statistics and fractions well enough to recognize the problem with that question?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:20 pm 
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And do the increased aerodynamics offset the increased weight with regard to fuel consumption? Better yet, especially with regard to engine and drive train technology ...

Increased complexity results in an increase in lost operation time. How much of your savings are lost covering repairs for more expensive, more complex vehicles that yield only a marginal increase in fuel efficiency?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:21 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
I agree that the hydrogen thing is pretty pie-in-the-sky, but what's wrong with the suggestions at the second link? They all seem like modifications that would be fairly easy to adopt, and I know I've seen them all in use on at least some trucks.

There's nothing wrong with the suggestions, but they're unquantifiable. First off, to what extent does drag affect the fuel efficiency of a "standard" "normal" or "regular" semi truck?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:28 pm 
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shuyung wrote:
There's nothing wrong with the suggestions, but they're unquantifiable. First off, to what extent does drag affect the fuel efficiency of a "standard" "normal" or "regular" semi truck?


You need to look up unquantifiable. A study of this would be VERY easy to quantify the results. Most high schoolers could perform the data analysis on this.

Furthermore, I've actually seen this type of mod for trucks advertised over 10 years ago on a TV program (Future Tech? I can't recall the name) it was extremely inexpensive for a huge return on fuel efficiency.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:35 pm 
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I wonder what the durability of such systems are under real world stress. Decreased fuel consumption would be great but not if you have to adopt a fragile part that's difficult to maintain.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:48 pm 
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TheRiov wrote:
You need to look up unquantifiable. A study of this would be VERY easy to quantify the results. Most high schoolers could perform the data analysis on this.

Furthermore, I've actually seen this type of mod for trucks advertised over 10 years ago on a TV program (Future Tech? I can't recall the name) it was extremely inexpensive for a huge return on fuel efficiency.

I invite you to go ahead.

And while it's shiny that you have some half-remembered anecdotal evidence, it's not very helpful, now is it?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:12 pm 
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Don't get pissy with me, just because you don't know the definition of misused the word "unquantifiable"


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:27 pm 
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http://www.atdynamics.com/aero.htm
http://www.atdynamics.com/fuel.htm

For one particular mod


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:11 pm 
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That's a much better site. It actually has details and data instead of simply claims.

So looking at this, I've found that MVT is installing the product on their fleet. The article simply states they're installing the tail, but the images from the article and the MVT website seem to imply that both the tail and skirts are being installed. Whichever way, if we assume an average 6 MPG fuel efficiency, and according to the numbers in the article 60000 gallons of fuel were saved over 8 million miles, that works out to about a 4.5% increase in fuel efficiency. Which is nothing to sneeze at, certainly, but even if the trial was done with only the tail, and the skirts (and "other minor modifications", whatever those are) could add some more savings, if the difference between the claimed increase of 6.6% and the observed increase of 4.5% holds to the same ratio for the total possible gains from all modifications, then we're looking at just over an 8% increase in efficiency. That leaves some amount of needed increases approaching about 15% left to go to reach the "up to 23%".

So what else do you have?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:30 pm 
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I'm assuming you're asking me to provide what solutions there are to get to 33% efficiency on the use of internal combustion engines?

Your math is wrong. Even a 10% increase in efficiency is not measure against the theoretical maximum 100% efficiency, but rather the existing efficiency. a 10% increase in efficiency would get you from 20% -> 22% efficiency.

The whole point is that he's asking the auto industry to put greater focus on developing the technologies to improve engine performance.


Beyond that, you're comparing apples and oranges. Changing the drag or aerodynamic profile does nothing to change engine efficiency. An internal combustion engine has a theoretical maximum efficiency in that a certain amount of the total energy consumed in burning a fuel is lost to things like heat, that does not go to actually turning the vehicle.
Even in a perfect, frictionless system, the upper limit on an internal combustion engine is 37%. Rockets, on the other hand are about 70% efficient.

Changing the aerodynamic properties properties of the vehicle is a totally different thing.

A vehicle in motion in an atmosphere or in the water produces drag. The higher the speed, the higher the drag.

Reducing cross section, creating vortexes in the right places to reduce low pressure area --all these things reduce drag. According to the web site I listed, 65% of a semi's power goes JUST to overcoming drag. If you could eliminate drag, you would more than double the fuel efficiency. But you still wouldn't pass your engine efficiency. (of course its impossible to eliminate drag outside of a total vacuum, but I'm just talking about the hypothetical)


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:32 pm 
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I came across a post that Wal-Mart is doing similar mods with about 1000 trucks in their fleet too btw.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:35 pm 
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Just for certain interested parties out there ...

I'd re-read Shuyung's post before you eviscerate yourself on your own sword.

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