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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:09 pm 
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Serienya wrote:
Not threats so much as over-the-top hyperbole.

I want to see these men have a fair trial - or as fair as we can give them. I want it to be open and transparent. We have to be able to show that even those who have done such harm are worthy of the same legal protections that I have.


I want them to have a fair trial, too...just not in a civilian court.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:12 pm 
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KSM will be no-doubt found guilty. Why worry about it so? After all, this is the man who once stated, "I am the mastermind of 9/11, not Osama bin Laden," in court.
(Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 04385.html)

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:44 pm 
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Keep in mind.. they need to try and find an impartial jury.... I do not see that as occurring in NY

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:33 pm 
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I don't see that happening anywhere, but I think they could certainly find 12 people who aren't going to be automatically lusting for his blood to the point where the verdict could be overturned on appeal.

I know that I could fairly weigh evidence in such a trial. Why couldn't others?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:39 pm 
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Serienya wrote:
I don't see that happening anywhere, but I think they could certainly find 12 people who aren't going to be automatically lusting for his blood to the point where the verdict could be overturned on appeal.

I know that I could fairly weigh evidence in such a trial. Why couldn't others?


I think others could, but I also see an opportunity for a defense attorney to cry foul on the grounds of jury impartiality and have a chance to get the case dismissed before it gets going.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:39 pm 
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They've admitted it. They've wanted to be matyrs for a while now. This is really a joke of a trial when you think about it.

How will they be tried by a jury of their peers? How can it be reliably said that there are impartial jurors on the panel? The President has already said what the verdict should/will be.

It's a mockery of the judicial system, and the effects of this trial are going to reach farther then we can calculate at this time.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:36 am 
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Leshani wrote:
That's way I suggested a change of venue, it a tool that can be used to move a trail to a neutral location. When you can reasonably ascertain that a non biased Jury can't be seated, and is allowed for in the court process.


*checks diary*
I believe Australia's free week from next thursday... bring some buffalo wings too will yas =P

unfortunately I do not believe there are any neutral locations on earth for 911


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:27 pm 
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It's alright from where I'm standing. The Obama Administration had made sure that all 5 of these individuals will walk. If they don't, then there is no reason to have any faith in the Federal Justice Department and Judicial System ever again.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:05 pm 
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Nuremberg trials

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:02 pm 
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Khross wrote:
It's alright from where I'm standing. The Obama Administration had made sure that all 5 of these individuals will walk. If they don't, then there is no reason to have any faith in the Federal Justice Department and Judicial System ever again.


How do you figure that the Obama administration has made sure that they will all walk?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:29 pm 
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Actually, I have just enough of the conspiracy theorist in me to wonder if this isn't a machevellian (sp) ploy by the Obama administration. Have a very public trial, let it turn into a trial of the Bush administration, then pull some shenanigans while the public is distracted, hanging on every part of this trial.

Not saying, just wondering. :)


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:10 am 
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Monte wrote:
Khross wrote:
It's alright from where I'm standing. The Obama Administration had made sure that all 5 of these individuals will walk. If they don't, then there is no reason to have any faith in the Federal Justice Department and Judicial System ever again.
How do you figure that the Obama administration has made sure that they will all walk?
Because, at this point, if they don't walk, it's a mockery of our Justice System and our Justice Department. All those principles you mentioned as important earlier in the thread? They dictate that these men walk if they can't receive a fair trial, which the President has amusingly assured cannot happen.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:06 am 
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I think the administration is a pack of fools for doing this. It's done merely for show, and in NYC no less. To prove what, that we are better than Al Qaeda? I do not understand what Obama thinks all this grovelling, bowing, apologizing and demurring will get him, and from whom he will get it.

He should get a trial, in front of a military tribunal.

Pre-emptive Goodwins =p

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... inion_main

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Please spare us talk of the "rule of law." If that was the primary consideration, the U.S. already has a judicial process in place. The current special military tribunals were created by the 2006 Military Commissions Act, which was adopted with bipartisan Congressional support after the Supreme Court's Hamdan decision obliged the executive and legislative branches to approve a detailed plan to prosecute the illegal "enemy combatants" captured since 9/11.

Contrary to liberal myth, military tribunals aren't a break with 200-plus years of American jurisprudence. Eight Nazis who snuck into the U.S. in June 1942 were tried by a similar court and most were hanged within two months. Before the Obama Administration stopped all proceedings earlier this year pending yesterday's decision, the tribunals at Gitmo had earned a reputation for fairness and independence.



http://www.fbi.gov/libref/historic/famc ... i/nazi.htm

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Shortly after midnight on the morning of June 13, 1942, four men landed on a beach near Amagansett, Long Island, New York, from a German submarine, clad in German uniforms and bringing ashore enough explosives, primers, and incendiaries to support an expected two-year career in the sabotage of American defense-related production. On June 17, 1942, a similar group landed on Ponte Vedra Beach, near Jacksonville, Florida, equipped for a similar career in industrial disruption.

The purpose of the invasions was to strike a major blow for Germany by bringing the violence of war to our home ground through destruction of America's ability to manufacture vital equipment and supplies and transport them to the battlegrounds of Europe; to strike fear into the American civilian population, and diminish the resolve of the United States to overcome our enemies.

By June 27, 1942, all eight saboteurs had been arrested without having accomplished one act of destruction. Tried before a Military Commission, they were found guilty. One was sentenced to life imprisonment, another to thirty years, and six received the death penalty, which was carried out within a few days.

The magnitude of the euphoric expectation of the Nazi war machine may be judged by the fact that, in addition to the large amount of material brought ashore by the saboteurs, they were given $175,200 in United States currency to finance their activities. On apprehension, a total of $174,588 was recovered by the FBI -- the only positive accomplishment of eight trained saboteurs in those two weeks was the expenditure of $612 for clothing, meals, lodging, and travel, as well as a bribe of $260.

So shaken was the German intelligence service that no similar sabotage attempt was ever again made. The German naval high command did not again allow a valuable submarine to be risked for a sabotage mission.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:28 am 
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More Obama revisionist history. They attempt to pre-empt any discourse by tossing out talking point propaganda from the start. They try to get the sheep running their way immediatly, since it's harder to change their direction then start them running.

Disgusting.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:52 am 
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Bery's sentiments in this thread are what's wrong with America.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:33 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Bery's sentiments in this thread are what's wrong with America.


Of course it is. Everyone knows that when you're dealing with people who want to kill you, you should bend over backwards to give them every opportunity to take another shot at killing you. Doh!


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:23 pm 
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He's not trying to let them off, I dont think. He is pushing his agenda of saying "See we Americans arent so bad."

It is a rather interesting spot he's putting himself in. KSM will be found guilty, the idea that he would walk is not credible politically. Yet we know KSM was waterboarded and we know that by giving him a trial of this type all the information we've gathered and how it was gathered will be transparent.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:36 pm 
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Dash wrote:
He's not trying to let them off, I dont think. He is pushing his agenda of saying "See we Americans arent so bad."

It is a rather interesting spot he's putting himself in. KSM will be found guilty, the idea that he would walk is not credible politically. Yet we know KSM was waterboarded and we know that by giving him a trial of this type all the information we've gathered and how it was gathered will be transparent.



Look at the tenats of our justice system and I think it becomes pretty clear what the "angle" is on this.

You have the right to face your accuser. In this case would that be the CIA operatives? Dick Cheney? Bush? Lets just say it's the CIA operative- ok if they obey the supeona, they are now outed and cannot perform their job. If they disobey they are in violation of the law.

You have the right to review all evidence presented against you. Well in this case, there needs to be a balance of national security with this right? Or will the judge accept, "we have proof but cannot display it due to national security interests"?

I feel this is going to turn out to be another political getback by the administration. They aren't putting KSM on trial, they are trying to put Bush on trial. Again, Obama is setting up another to do his dirty work, so if it goes south in the polls, he can say "hey, wasn't me". How many times has he done that so far?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:00 pm 
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Dash wrote:
... we know KSM was waterboarded...
He walks.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:01 pm 
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I wonder what happens, if KSM gets off? hung Jury? free to go?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:10 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Dash wrote:
... we know KSM was waterboarded...
He walks.


You would think that, in a vacuum, that would be the case for an individual afforded the rights of a common criminal. Yet can you see the administration allowing KSM to walk because of this decision? Again what does he gain and from whom?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:15 pm 
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If that is the case, Dash, then all we'll have proven is the administration is indeed above the law. I realize that many Americans would feel satisfied with that, and frankly, that's far more dangerous than one terrorist.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:27 pm 
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I'm not claiming to know what will happen, I'm simply surmising that KSM walking free after admitting he planned and set the 9/11 attacks in motion through to completion, would not look good for Obama. Will he rely on blaming the Bush administration for waterboarding them?

I really dont think that will fly. Then again I've said before I supported KSM being waterboarded so maybe I'm just out of touch and America will say "Oh damn they poured water on his face we need to let him go"

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:31 pm 
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Dash:

I really don't care what KSM may or may not have done. I really don't care what he was subjected to. The decision has been made to try him according to the Letter and Spirit of the Law in the United States. Due process and individual rights as established by our courts and 200 year history mean he walks. Any other outcome is a travesty and mockery of our Justice System.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:36 pm 
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Who waterboarded him, what's their relationship to his criminal trial, and will the information obtained be used to prosecute him?

I can't think of any good equivalent example, but if he were waterboarded by the CIA, it should not, in any way, be an excuse to allow him to walk, nor should any information obtained from him by the CIA be used against him (regardless of whether its by waterboarding).

The CIA is not a law enforcement agency, and should not be involved in the criminal justice process. They're a foriegn intelligence service. If they capture and interrogate someone, that information should not make it into a court proceeding, unless a law enforcement organization also obtained the information by some legal means. By the same token however, their behavior should not be construed as a violation of his rights as a defendant.

There's no good analogy with everyday domestic criminals because there is obviously no domestic intelligence agency that is not also a law enforcement agency (that I can think of).

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