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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:21 pm 
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Who is suggesting that Christians stand by and let people drown? How did we end up down that rat hole?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:37 pm 
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Khross wrote:
a scriptural obligation to charity.


And by the way - this is a strawman. I never made this argument. I said it was against the values.

EDIT: Bah, didn't mean to edit this post. My original post was making fun of your writing assignment and asking what my motivation would be for completing it.


Last edited by Arathain Kelvar on Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:39 pm 
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Midgen wrote:
Who is suggesting that Christians stand by and let people drown? How did we end up down that rat hole?


No one. Don't misunderstand me. The point was limited to societal demand for a response to natural disasters. Society has no control over individual citenzenry helping others, but it can force the government to act.

Thus, in my opinion, a governmental response such as FEMA performs must necessarily inevitably exist in a democracy.


Last edited by Arathain Kelvar on Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:48 pm 
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The problem is "people" apparently exect the "Government" to use their tax dollars to continually rebuild homes and businesses on flood plains, and in the path of hurricane storm surges.

This is ludicrous!.

If people want to build their houses or businesses on the banks of rivers, or on a beach close enough for storm surge to reach them, then they should be prepared to deal with the consequences. I as a taxpayer should not be obligated to pay for their stupidity.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:52 pm 
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Midgen wrote:
The problem is "people" apparently exect the "Government" to use their tax dollars to continually rebuild homes and businesses on flood plains, and in the path of hurricane storm surges.

This is ludicrous!.

If people want to build their houses or businesses on the banks of rivers, or on a beach close enough for storm surge to reach them, then they should be prepared to deal with the consequences. I as a taxpayer should not be obligated to pay for their stupidity.


All true. FEMA must exist, but must be kept in check.

That said, there is no place in America immune from natural disaster. And some places prone to them are necessary for economic prosperity (ports, rivers).


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:17 pm 
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Except, you know, Christian values aren't some amorphous set of loosely defined cultural mores that arise from sympathetic thought; rather, Christian values denotes a specific axiomatic set of values based on the Bible and other religious Christian teachings. Consequently, it should be rather easy to demonstrate this "value" you're attempting to describe.

Of course, you'll also need to demonstrate that these things are distinctly Christian.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:37 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Of course, you'll also need to demonstrate that these things are distinctly Christian.


Nope. This is another strawman. I did not make this argument either, and I addressed that issue already, specifically. Scroll up.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:45 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
Actually, Christian country is a misnomer. We might have to pick a specific denomination of Christianity. Perhaps we are attempting to argue that the United States is a Baptist country? How about a Catholic country? What about a Pentecostal country? Maybe we look like Presbyterians to you?


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Last edited by darksiege on Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:48 pm 
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You haven't addressed anything, Arathain; you have, however, misused a logical fallacy twice in this thread.

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Last edited by Khross on Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:48 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Except, you know, Christian values aren't some amorphous set of loosely defined cultural mores that arise from sympathetic thought; rather, Christian values denotes a specific axiomatic set of values based on the Bible and other religious Christian teachings. Consequently, it should be rather easy to demonstrate this "value" you're attempting to describe.


I think it would be. But... why? What's my motivation to acquiesce to your request for an essay?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:49 pm 
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And I have a question, this being hellfire and all... So how many of the people who claim to be Christian tithe their full 10% before all else is done? Or do you pay all of the bills and stuff and then give your 10%? Why? Why are some of the bills considered an obligation, but not giving God his tithe?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:51 pm 
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Khross wrote:
You haven't addressed anything, Arathain; you have, however, misused a logical fallacy twice in this thread.


What exactly do I need to address, then, and why? You've made an incorrect statement, and falsely presented my arguments, but what obligation do I have to demonstrate this to you under your terms?

In other words, your being wrong on the internet doesn't make me lose sleep. You can believe whatever you like.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:52 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Khross wrote:
Except, you know, Christian values aren't some amorphous set of loosely defined cultural mores that arise from sympathetic thought; rather, Christian values denotes a specific axiomatic set of values based on the Bible and other religious Christian teachings. Consequently, it should be rather easy to demonstrate this "value" you're attempting to describe.


I think it would be. But... why? What's my motivation to acquiesce to your request for an essay?
I didn't request an essay. I asked you to defend a questionable statement.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:58 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
You've made an incorrect statement, and falsely presented my arguments, but what obligation do I have to demonstrate this to you under your terms?
I've done no such thing. I've asked you to defend a questionable statement; twice now.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:32 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
You've made an incorrect statement, and falsely presented my arguments, but what obligation do I have to demonstrate this to you under your terms?
I've done no such thing. I've asked you to defend a questionable statement; twice now.


You have falsely presented my arguments. Regardless, and as I've said (twice now), what's my motivation to go and research this, cite references, and frame my research as "kindly requested"? I'm not interested in your writing assignment for these reasons:

1) It doesn't bother me that you're wrong. You can believe whatever you like.
2) It's not important. My point stands regardless of whether I write this paper or not. In other words, I need not jump through these hoops to satisfy my point, and the purpose of my post (prior to your derail).
3) It's not a topic that interests me.
4) You've already started the word games and misrepresentation of my argument - while truly entertaining from time to time, I'm not in the mood to play.
5) I see no benefit to me or this thread to feed the derail.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:34 pm 
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Arathain:

I haven't "presented" your arguments at all. I have asked questions based on your statements. I'm not sure what you're confusion is ...

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:41 pm 
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Arathain,

What is Khross "wrong" about? He's just asking you to clarify your statement...

What 'point' did you make that you think 'stands'? I lost track.

For a topic that isn't important, or doesn't interest you, you have certainly made a lot of posts in it...


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:41 pm 
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So, anyway, back on topic -

There was an NPR report about NOAA's funding for low-orbit weather satellites being cut, and the aging condition of the existing satellites. Obviously, data collected from these satellites was used to track the storm (fairly accurately) and facilitate evacuations and such. The weather data is used for a lot of other purposes, and is available for free.

How do you guys feel about this as a suitable use for government?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:48 pm 
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Midgen wrote:
Arathain,

What is Khross "wrong" about? He's just asking you to clarify your statement...


That it's not a violation of Christian values to watch people drown, etc. etc.

I think that is incorrect.

Quote:
What 'point' did you make that you think 'stands'? I lost track.


People won't tolerate such suffering without demanding a government response. I think this is intuitively obvious enough that it stands whether it's tied to Christian values or not.

Quote:
For a topic that isn't important, or doesn't interest you, you have certainly made a lot of posts in it...


Frustrating to be sure. My other choice, obviously, is to simply ignore it and move on. I'm not good at that, though, I approach forums (arguably, this is dumb) in a similar fashion to a conversation, and it feels like ignoring a post directed to my attention is like turning around in the middle of the conversation and walking away. It feels wrong. Instead, I tend to try to explain myself.

It usually turns out poorly.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:26 pm 
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darksiege wrote:
And I have a question, this being hellfire and all... So how many of the people who claim to be Christian tithe their full 10% before all else is done? Or do you pay all of the bills and stuff and then give your 10%? Why? Why are some of the bills considered an obligation, but not giving God his tithe?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:26 pm 
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darksiege wrote:
And I have a question, this being hellfire and all... So how many of the people who claim to be Christian tithe their full 10% before all else is done? Or do you pay all of the bills and stuff and then give your 10%? Why? Why are some of the bills considered an obligation, but not giving God his tithe?


I can tell you that I don't keep track of it. Some of it makes it into my taxes, but how much over all? Is it 10% of my base pay? Give or take, that's about right - normally. Right now, it's probably closer to 2-4%. Things are tighter than I'd like.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:41 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Kindly demonstrate, with adequate documentation from appropriate sources (the Bible, the most current and all past version of the Catholic catechism, etc.), a scriptural obligation to charity.



Specifically, 2nd Corinthians 8.

American Standard Version wrote:
8 I speak not by way of commandment, but as proving through the earnestness of others the sincerity also of your love.

9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might become rich.

10 And herein I give my judgment: for this is expedient for you, who were the first to make a beginning a year ago, not only to do, but also to will.

11 But now complete the doing also; that as there was the readiness to will, so there may be the completion also out of your ability.

12 For if the readiness is there, it is acceptable according as a man hath, not according as he hath not.

13 For I say not this that others may be eased and ye distressed;

14 but by equality: your abundance being a supply at this present time for their want, that their abundance also may become a supply for your want; that there may be equality:

15 as it is written, He that gathered much had nothing over; and he that gathered little had no lack.


However, none of that is really necessary.

Matthew 22, American Standard Version wrote:
35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, trying him:

36 Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the great and first commandment.

39 And a second like unto it is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

40 On these two commandments the whole law hangeth, and the prophets.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:36 pm 
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I thought the in God We Trust thing was started in the 1950s?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:14 am 
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That, along with the "under God" phrase in the Pledge of Allegiance. They were snuck in during the Eisenhower administration. It happened just long enough ago that today's old people were too young to remember it when it happened.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:08 am 
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In God we Trust first appeared on coins during the 1860's iirc, but didn't make it to paper currency until the 1950s. It was made the 'official motto' of the US in the 50s as well from what I remember.


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