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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:25 am 
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Ok, maybe not exactly but they sure don't want you killing something on the endagered list even if it means protecting your life, the life of your family or property.

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http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/when-grizzly-bears-attack/?singlepage=true

When Grizzly Bears Attack …

A North Idaho man killed a grizzly bear that was threatening his family. Now he could face jail time if the Obama administration has its way.

Rachel Hill looked out her bedroom [1] window on the evening of Mother’s Day and saw three grizzly bears attacking the children’s 4H club pigs’ pen. The Hill children had been outside practicing basketball a half hour earlier, so seeing the bears concerned her and her husband, Jeremy Hill. After calling for his kids and hearing no response, Jeremy grabbed his daughter’s rifle. After once more calling for the kids, fearing they were in danger, he shot at the closest grizzly bear, which was about 120 feet away.

The other two grizzlies fled while the wounded bear began to run off in the same direction, but then turned and came towards the house. Hill shot the bear a final time due to the danger a severely wounded grizzly bear posed to his family and others. Hill called two officials with the Idaho Department of Fish and Game. They came out, investigated, and unsuccessfully tried to capture the other two grizzly bears by placing bear traps on the property.

Regardless of the danger to Hill’s family, grizzly bears are listed as a threatened species under the Endangered Species Act, thus the federal government is prosecuting him [2]. If convicted, Hill could face up to one year in prison and a $50,000 fine.

The charge is sparking outrage throughout the state of Idaho. Rocky Barker of the Idaho Statesman notes [3], “Usually, congressmen try to stay out of a case while it’s in court.” On this issue, however, the state’s entire congressional delegation as well as Governor Butch Otter [4] (R-ID) have publicly weighed in on Hill’s behalf.

The Boundary County prosecutor also came out on Hill’s behalf [5], noting the Idaho Department of Fish and Game hadn’t contacted his office to indicate the law had been violated and had reportedly told Hill there shouldn’t be any issue as he was acting in defense of his family. The Boundary County Commission unanimously sided with Hill [6] and noted the animals were five miles away from the nearest recovery zone for grizzly bears.

With determination that would make Inspector Javert [10] proud, federal prosecutors have the case set to go to trial on October 4th. The stakes could not be more significant. At issue is whether the fundamental right to self-defense allows people to protect their families from dangerous animals, or if such a high value is placed on an endangered species that human lives must only be in the greatest peril imaginable to justify a shooting.

Even if the federal government prevails, the prosecution of Jeremy Hill will most likely have results counterproductive to the stated goals of the Endangered Species Act. Families living in Grizzly Country, facing the same risks as Hill, will still act to protect their families. Given what has happened to Hill, one thing they won’t do is call the authorities. Had Hill not done this, he would not be facing the charge.

This would only become one more situation where the phrase “Shoot, shovel, and shut up [11]” would be applied. When many farmers and ranchers find on their property a predator listed as an endangered or threatened species, to preserve their livelihoods and protect their families, they literally shoot the animal, bury the carcass, and say nothing.

The Jeremy Hill case should serve as a clarion call to reform the nearly four-decades-old Endangered Species Act. What Congress and the Interior Department have failed to recognize is that for the act to work effectively they need the buy-in of those who live in the same area as these species. That will not happen if the Endangered Species Act fails to provide reasonable protections for humans’ property and safety.

Whatever the verdict, the tone deaf prosecution has reinforced the feeling of many Americans living in the rural West: the federal government is as big of a menace to their livelihoods and safety as any beast in the forest.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:29 am 
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Ok I can't even get to the article because the thread title has me lol'ing. :D

*edit*

Ok now that I've read the article...that's pretty messed up. I hope they change the laws. To put an animal's life above the lives of human beings is so wrong as to be incomprehensible.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:17 am 
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This is absolute bullshit.

To value an animal's life over a human is ridiculous.

I would wish that whoever supports such laws to protect animals be attacked by said animal, but I do believe that such a person in the same situation would likely prefer the animal be preserved even as they are being mauled to death.

Look up Timothy Treadwell for an example of someone with this attitude. Short, short version of his life is as follows: Loved bears so much he lived in the Alaskan wilderness with them against all warnings. Was eventually mauled and eaten by a bear.

EDIT - WTF? The grizzly bear's subspecies name is Ursus arctos horribilis. Its in the name people, this bear is horrible. Do we really need to take actions to preserve and protect this bear?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:21 am 
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Won't someone please think of the children?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:24 am 
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There are lots of examples of this kind of thing. I wish them well in court. I wonder why the DA is pushing this so far. I don't really think he's going to be able to obtain a sympathetic jury.

The defendant needs very much not to plea out, and that might be what the DA is hoping for.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:26 am 
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Aizle wrote:
Won't someone please think of the children?

Not the children. His children who he could not find at the moment that a dangerous animal was on his property. I'm not saying we shouldn't have endangered species laws. I'm just saying like human murder we should have reasonable exceptions for self defense.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:41 am 
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Aizle wrote:
Won't someone please think of the children?

Although the ages aren't referenced I found it weird that he grabbed "his daughter's rifle" to shoot the bear.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:42 am 
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Aizle wrote:
Won't someone please think of the children bears?


FTFY.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:43 am 
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When many farmers and ranchers find on their property a predator listed as an endangered or threatened species, to preserve their livelihoods and protect their families, they literally shoot the animal, bury the carcass, and say nothing.


That's a great solution, except that biologists tag these animals with tracking devices often.

So, if you shoot a big giant bear that's attacking you, be sure to hit the spinning radar dish on its head.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:44 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
Aizle wrote:
Won't someone please think of the children?

Although the ages aren't referenced I found it weird that he grabbed "his daughter's rifle" to shoot the bear.


Idaho, man. You get a rifle at age 13. I think it's a state law.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:52 am 
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Or a potato gun.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:32 am 
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Definitely sounds like a prosecutor who is either really over-zealous or just didn't check the facts before filing the charge. Either way, that's ridiculous. That said, the attitude reflected in this bit of the article always bugs me:
Article wrote:
When many farmers and ranchers find on their property a predator listed as an endangered or threatened species, to preserve their livelihoods and protect their families, they literally shoot the animal, bury the carcass, and say nothing.

...Whatever the verdict, the tone deaf prosecution has reinforced the feeling of many Americans living in the rural West: the federal government is as big of a menace to their livelihoods and safety as any beast in the forest.

Uh-huh. Tell you what, western farmers and ranchers, when the federal government stops supporting your economically unsustainable livelihoods with billions upon billions of dollars worth of direct subsidies and billions upon billions more in free/cheap land-use rights, then you can complain about the federal government being a menace. Until then, stfu about the terrible burden that being prohibited from shooting bears and wolves imposes on your business.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:33 am 
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That's **** ridiculous.

(1) It's a bear. Someone needs to take the Grizzly off the endangered or threatened list, they're all over the west coast, and if not common as dirt, still common enough that people encounter them in the wild all the time. They're all over the place.

(2) If a dangerous animal is on your property, the proper response is "shoot the damn thing." Even if it's legitimately endangered, so the **** what? More animals have gone extinct before humans ever roamed this planet than currently exist. That's how nature works. While I fully support not helping natural selection along, if an animal is threatening humans in any way, well, that's a good argument for it lacking "fitness." As much as people say "do not get between a mother bear and her cubs," any animal that endanger's the young of the dominant species on this planet is going to find its life cut short very, very quickly. That's just how it is, and that's how it should be.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:34 am 
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Wow. Only a liberal.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:37 am 
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Nitefox wrote:
Wow. Only a liberal.



I find RD's argument something less than "liberal." First of all, he agrees the charges are stupid. Then he argued that those farms only exist because of stupid federal subsidies that shouldn't be there to start with, so they have no business complaining about stupid federal interference -- without the fed, the farms would be gone.

Wanting to eliminate farm subsidies is far more libertarian-conservative than liberal.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:42 am 
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Nitefox wrote:
Wow. Only a liberal

...would notice the ridiculousness of western ranchers and farmers thinking the federal government is a "menace" to their livelihoods? On the contrary, many libertarians regularly point out the various subsidies the feds dole out to sustain those livelihoods.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:42 am 
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Talya wrote:
Nitefox wrote:
Wow. Only a liberal.



I find RD's argument something less than "liberal." First of all, he agrees the charges are stupid. Then he argued that those farms only exist because of stupid federal subsidies that shouldn't be there to start with, so they have no business complaining about stupid federal interference -- without the fed, the farms would be gone.

Wanting to eliminate farm subsidies is far more libertarian-conservative than liberal.



No, he was fine till he got his panties in a twist because a guy had the audacity to complain about the federal goverenment making life hard for him while he was protecting his family FROM A GRIZZLY BEAR on the off chance he might be recieving some sort of government help. Basically, only a liberal would find a way to come to the rescue of the government in a situation like this.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:46 am 
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Grizzly's were pests when I lived in Achorage in the late 90's. In fact, the Anchorage Zoo is the only zoo to have a problem with bears breaking INTO the zoo...

As pesty as they were, they were still considered protected, and I recall several cases where people were prosecuted for shooting bears that were threatening or attacking people or pets.

One case, the guy actually had video of a bear trying to pry open his trash bin, which was out at his curb awaiting pickup (they use bear proof garbage cans up there). The family dog was barking at the bear in a frenzy. When the bear got frustrated with the garbage can, the bear turned on the dog. They property owner, who was on a second level deck/patio, then shot the bear and (if I recall) killed it.

He was prosecuted and did some time in jail, despite the fact that he shot a bear that was clearly aggressive, on his property.

There was another situation where a bear wandered into a campground just outside of Eagle River (suburb of Anchorage), and started trying ripping open tents, backpacks and coolers. At some point apparently the bear started chasing campers, and someone shot it with a large caliber hand gun. They were subsequently prosecuted as well.

If I recall, the justification was that the encounters were avoidable. In the first situation, no humans were threatened and defending a pet on your property is apparently not justification to shoot a bear.

In the campground, they found that the campers were negligent in not taking precautions with their food stores, and causing the situation by attracting the bear. And then not taking every opportunity to leave the area when the bear arrived and started pillaging the tents and backpacks.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:46 am 
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The farmers need to realize that Dave's attitude, while offensive to some of our sensibilities, is correct. As long as the government is paying your way, you are in bondage to them. Thus they need to start saying no to the government dole.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:48 am 
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No, he was fine till he got his panties in a twist because a guy had the audacity to complain about the federal goverenment making life hard for him while he was protecting his family FROM A GRIZZLY BEAR on the off chance he might be recieving some sort of government help. Basically, only a liberal would find a way to come to the rescue of the government in a situation like this.


NF, he's not coming to the rescue of the fed. Or even talking about this specific case. He's talking about the part of the article where farmers complain about the fed threatening their livelihood when the fed IS their livelihood (not the farms, which are not profitable. The farmers are just living off of disguised welfare.)

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:49 am 
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Midgen wrote:
If I recall, the justification was that the encounters were avoidable. In the first situation, no humans were threatened and defending a pet on your property is apparently not justification to shoot a bear.

In the campground, they found that the campers were negligent in not taking precautions with their food stores, and causing the situation by attracting the bear. And then not taking every opportunity to leave the area when the bear arrived and started pillaging the tents and backpacks.

Those justifications are absurd.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:49 am 
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Nitefox wrote:
No, he was fine till he got his panties in a twist because a guy had the audacity to complain about the federal goverenment making life hard for him while he was protecting his family FROM A GRIZZLY BEAR on the off chance he might be recieving some sort of government help. Basically, only a liberal would find a way to come to the rescue of the government in a situation like this.

The author of the article is the one who raised the point that many westerners view the federal government as a burden on their lives and livelihoods. I happen to think that view is pretty obviously ridiculous given the level of subsidization involved. Totally legit to complain about specific policies or specific actions, but viewing the feds as a net burden (let alone "a menace") is just silly.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:55 am 
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Did I miss something? How are we so sure this guy is collecting any government subsidies?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:56 am 
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Talya wrote:
Midgen wrote:
If I recall, the justification was that the encounters were avoidable. In the first situation, no humans were threatened and defending a pet on your property is apparently not justification to shoot a bear.

In the campground, they found that the campers were negligent in not taking precautions with their food stores, and causing the situation by attracting the bear. And then not taking every opportunity to leave the area when the bear arrived and started pillaging the tents and backpacks.

Those justifications are absurd.

Agreed on the first one being absurd - hell, I think defending a pet on your property justifies shooting a human. As for the second, depends on what the actual charges were. I don't object to charging people with some sort of negligence-based violation if they do something really stupid that predictably leads to killing the bear. Once the dangerous situation develops, of course, you have to shoot the bear, but if you're dumb enough to be cooking hamburgers in your tent while in bear country (or whatever), then sure, you deserve to be fined pretty heftily when it all goes bad.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:57 am 
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Midgen wrote:
Did I miss something? How are we so sure this guy is collecting any government subsidies?

Not talking about this guy in particular. I was referring to the general attitude among "farmers and ranchers...[and] many people in the rural west" that the article noted.


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