The Glade 4.0

And yet you must know the outcome Khross, they are telegraphing it quite clearly in the article from the original post:

"Federal prosecutors will likely seek the death penalty for the self-proclaimed mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks and his accomplices who are being returned to the scene of their alleged crimes, the nation's top law enforcement officer said Friday."

Think they plan to lose? I would also point out Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri has been remitted to a military tribunal and was also waterboarded. This appears to be for show yet I'm not sure what the objective is.

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“Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general”. - Mark Rippetoe

If that's the case that will be the out I suppose. He confesses to planning 9/11 and the information he gave during interrogation was about AQ's internal structure afaik so it would not be needed to make the case for his guilt.

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“Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general”. - Mark Rippetoe

Diamondeye:

Involving any CIA evidence in the case only complicates the matter further. If KSM is subject to the rules of domestic law, he's not under the jurisdiction of the CIA.

Dashel:

I have no doubt that this show trial and kangaroo court will happen. It's still madness and a mockery of our justice system.

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Well that's the real joke. He seems to want it both ways:

KSM should be tried in a civil court even though the others get a military tribunal

KSM was waterboarded and if it were a civilian court and he a common criminal then that would get him off, but it wont in this case.

So see America we can do it "right" and still get the bad guy!

I guess this is for his base who will feel good being able to say he got convicted in a "fair" trial unlike those devious Bush/Cheney military tribunals. Very bizarre, although probably a pretty accurate reading of Americans. We want KSM guilty and either dead or in jail for life, work out the details as you see fit.

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“Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general”. - Mark Rippetoe

Don't forget the what, 500 years of English Common Law history, upon which our system is also based.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

Maybe they plan to do a "William Wallace" on them?

That's essentially what Obama said about the Ft. Hood attacker, so perhaps that style of "trial" is his vision of "justice."

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

Uh.. isn't that what I just said? They can't have jurisdiction; they aren't a court or law enforcement agency.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

While true, neither of these are really a reason to exonerate him in and of themselves; they're appeals to tradition. Just because we've done things a certain way for 700 years doesn't necessarily mean we should always do them that way.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

I thought that law was established in courts, right? That rulings set precedent? I'm not sure what they are referring to is necessarily an appeal to tradition so much as they were just making light of the way law and precedent are handled in the US.

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"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones

I'm saying that failure to let these men go in a civilian criminal court would violate centuries of stare decisis, the US Constitution, and probably the Constitution of the State of New York, though I'm almost wholly unfamiliar with it.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

Perhaps we shouldn't have, you know, done all the **** that might get them released when we captured them.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Is this directed at me?

If so, I'd kindly like you to point to where I've ever defended the practices under which we held, detained, tried (or failed to try), and treated these prisoners.

If not, I merely say: indeed.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

Of course not.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

It's actually a good question for you there Monte, assuming you believe him to be guilty, do you feel he should be released considering he was waterboarded?

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“Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general”. - Mark Rippetoe

Precedent usually pertains to how the law is applied to certain types of cases, and while yes, the courts generally follow precedent, they don't have to, nor does precedent bind the legislature in setting rules for the courts. Since each case is different, the court must decide whether a given precedent is applicable or not, and in some cases, whether the precendent was correct. The most famous example is the switch between Plessy v. Fergueson and Brown v. Board of Education.

In this case, there is, as one article pointed out, precedent for the use of a military tribunal. Precedent regarding how defendants are normally handled purely domestic crimes doesn't necessarily apply because the criminals carried out parts of the crime outside the U.S. and were part of an NGO attempting to engage in acts of war as if it were a government. Much like with pirates, there are differences in the rules of how they are to be handled, and more importantly,the need to act in the national defense against people who commit crimes in attacking us should not preclude prosecuting them for their inidividual acts. All that's doing is creating a shield for them to hide behind while they engage in actions like 9/11.

It certainly opens no doors to ignore any part of the criminal justice system in regards to normal crimes committed wholly on U.S. soil or by U.S. citizens.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

NGOs cannot commit acts of war.

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That's right. We should have been holding them briefly to see if they'd give us information, and then executing them on the spot.

They want to get prisoner of war privileges like a Geneva signatory? They can find a Geneva signatory that wants to sponsor them and put them in uniform. Until then, we defend attacks on our military with deadly force.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

Arguably they can when acting as a proxy for a government, but you'll notice I said "NGO attmpting to engage in acts of war as if it were a government".

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Diamondeye:

My statement was more for other poster's benefit than yours. I'd hate for someone to misread your statement.

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Fair enough.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Provided they weren't taken via Extraordinary Rendition and that the CIA was the group conducting the executions, fine by me.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

That's my point. I'd have the military shoot un-uniformed assailants on the spot. **** the CIA. I don't need them present to hide what I'm doing. You attack a military without Geneva protections, you get what's coming to you.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

In a combat situation, sure. What about if they're simply presumed terrorists captured in a raid or something?

The military has internal rules and reports on how to deal with those people. The CIA is a clandestine intelligence organization with advanced field operatives. So there's not only policy and oversight issues with the military doing it in a non-combat situation, it's a psychological issue I don't want our soldiers becoming too accustomed to: executing untried, unarmed "militants." The CIA doing that I'm fine with, considering their dramatically smaller field-operations division.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine