The Glade 4.0

I think we'll never know the truth of the matter.

I also think that it doesn't matter at all. I'm sure that someone from the White House questioned Ford on it. I don't think that is out of line, or that any other administration would have done anything different.

The article was muck raking at it's finest, and I've already given it many times more attention than it was worth.

Wow. I'm pretty sure you're reaction would be the exact opposite had this been done under Bush.

The real issue though is that you don't give a second thought about the goverment (potentially) strong arming a private company because it makes them look bad. No wonder our country is heading into the crapper.

_________________
"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

Well, you'd be wrong. I would expect the exact actions by any other administration, including Bush's.

I expect the government to question information that it does not agree with, and I expect companies to not be pussies and stand up for their rights. I thought Ford's comments on Facebook were perfect. Now if you think that having someone from the White House call Ford and question the message that it's sending is strong arming, then I'm not sure what to tell you. Strong arming to me is implying or threatening some kind of negative action if they don't change their behavior. I don't see any indication that happened here. If there is evidence of that, I'll be the first in line to denounce it. But asking about it is not strong arming.

So if the WH called you up one day and asked you about some things that you were saying that made them look bad, that would be no big deal to you? You wouldn't feel just a little bit threatend or intimidated?

_________________
"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

So you're comparing me as a private person to the 3rd largest automotive company in the world?

To answer your absurd question, it would entirely depend on:

1. what I said
2. how much national attention my comments had gotten
3. what was asked by the white house

If they were cordial and expressed valid concerns to comments I had made that generated a large amount of national attention, I would frankly expect it and at least consider their arguments. If they went beyond trying to provide a viewpoint or detail that I may not have considered or had access to, then I'd have a problem.

Private company, private citizen. What's the difference?

_________________
"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

...

I have to assume you're just jerking my chain. If you honestly believe that then I've already wasted enough time answering you.

To quote the interwebs:

"I refuse to believe that corporations are people until Texas executes one."

It's entirely possible.

Though again he's presented no evidence of his claim.

With the actual evidence provided (the fact that the ad is still out there, the frequency with which car dealerships change their advert creative [I've first-hand knowledge and experience that part is accurate], Ford's statement, the White House's statement, the guy he quoted in his own article), what's far more likely is that he's trying to save face after he got called on what's increasingly likely to be either inflated diatribe or just outright bullshit.

But isn't as though that's ever happened before.

Ah, the liberal mindset. What a wonderful thing to behold.

_________________
"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

Apparently you and the intarwebs have never read Texas's civil forfeiture and corporate forfeiture laws. Texas "executes" corporations and businesses pretty regularly.

_________________

So you seriously don't believe there is a substantive difference between me as a private person and Ford as a multi-billion dollar international company? You don't think that our resources, assets and impact are in any way different?

Your argument, Aizle, at least as it's coming across ...

Is that Ford only gets attention from the government because of the leverage it can exert on the government or economy.

Nitefox's argument is that such things are immaterial: if it's intimidation and coercion in the case of a private citizen, it's intimidation and coercion in the case of a different type of private entity.

_________________

The government makes inquiries all the time. Individuals regularly get called to testify before congress. Just 'asking questions' does not include an implied threat. The executive branch is allowed to investigate on their own--just as a police officer can try to sort out a situation before they make an arrest, the white house can call a company to ask some questions. I suppose if you start with the mindset that gov't=Evil then maybe, but most sane people don't believe that.

So do you approve with the nature of the questions the White House is asking, then? What, exactly, are they investigating before, to run with the police officer analogy, "makign an arrest"?

_________________
"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

Yes, I believe you, as a private citizen, can vote - Ford can't. That's some disparate impact for sure.

_________________
"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

Well, it seems to go without saying that the government is only going to pay attention to those entities that can exert significant leverage. To do otherwise would be stupid. As I've already posted, if I managed to somehow catch the eye of the government because I became the next internet meme that actually was exerting some national scope of leverage, I would fully expect to be contacted by the government in some fashion. How they interacted with me would determine if it's intimidation or not.

I agree that if it's intimidation and coercion the target doesn't matter. However, I believe I've already made it quite clear that the government coming and asking questions is not intimidation or coercion.

Frankly Nitefox's position comes off that the Government is the boogey man and any interaction with it is always negative and always coercion.

If you think my 1 vote has the same level of impact as the millions of dollars Ford spends on lobbying, I have a bridge to sell you.

The time, money and people Ford can invest on lobbying pales in comparison to the amount of time, money and people that private citizens invest on lobbying - and yet, Ford can't vote and private citizens can. Those private citizens have it all over Ford.

_________________
"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

I think that viewpoint is amazingly niave.

I think the viewpoint that all a company has to do is spend money on "lobbying" and this gives it some sort of power is amazingly simplistic. There are plenty of companies lobbying for plenty of things, many of which are opposed. There are also plenty of advocacy groups advocating for other things, it's easy for them to generate support by dragging up wailing, sobbing people with some stroy of tragedy if they can't come up with the money Ford can.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Whether you think it's "amazingly naive", or not, it's true. Could you expound on what makes you feel that way? I would assume, based on the "intarweb quote" that you take issue with the Citizens United SCOTUS decision, but since you immediately brought up lobbyists, I'm confused.

_________________
"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

Basically, a large business has an inordinantly greater amount of influence on the political process than a private citizen. It really runs the gamut, from campaign finance to improve their chances of getting elected to contributions afterward to get legislation created that favors those businesses. These businesses have access to politicians in a way that the average citizen just plain does not. From where I sit, that far overshadows the fact that they can't vote.

Bill Gates has inordinately more money (which from your argument I presume also means more influence) than you do. Does that mean you should have more rights than he does? Should we enact that by taking away his rights or by granting you special privileges that he doesn't have?

_________________
Sail forth! steer for the deep waters only!
Reckless, O soul, exploring, I with thee, and thou with me;
For we are bound where mariner has not yet dared to go,
And we will risk the ship, ourselves and all.

How much influence on your voting decision has Ford bought, Aizle?

I always wonder when folks think the unwashed masses can be driven like sheep but they themselves can see through the smoke and mirrors. Not very fair to go around thinking you're smarter than the next guy, is it?

Besides, folks that are dumb enough that they can be influenced vote Democratic

_________________
In time, this too shall pass.

*cough* lobbyists *cough*