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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:39 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
I like information now more than flights of fancy.


Don't fall into a trap, making yourself one dimensional. All the information in the world in useless without depth of character and a way to communicate and ultimatly sell that information to others.

You're talking to someone who's response to any slight, real or imagined, is measured by caliber.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:40 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Why on earth wouldn't I get it?

That said, one should probably dismiss any notions one has of Rand being an Objectivist and proto-libertarian thinker. Avoiding all criticisms or praises for her writing, there are some fundamental phenomenological concerns that undermine the value of her writing in those contexts. In particular, I specifically picked Rand because she's a) not Western by birth and b) not initially a child of the specific Anglo-Saxon diaspora that dominates current academic and political thought. Sadly, what I discovered when I actually took her texts to task was a curious and peculiarly post-Marxist notion of the hero.

But, I'll simply contend that altruistic suicide is not an act of heroism; it is, in point of fact, supremely selfish. However, that John Galt or Winston Smith or Professor Solanka or the Magistrate or Piggy or Bernard or even Darth Vader or Obi Wan or Qui Gonn or ...

Well, everyone that isn't a comic book super hero ... except for that fact that self-obliteration has become such a fundamental component of our society that the destruction of the self has become the ultimate heroic act.

And, that's actually just **** depressing.

I'd rather live in a world where aphanisis isn't a requirement to greatness.


That just begs the question: Why haven't you posted this week's pick em's yet?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:42 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
Khross wrote:
Why on earth wouldn't I get it?

That said, one should probably dismiss any notions one has of Rand being an Objectivist and proto-libertarian thinker. Avoiding all criticisms or praises for her writing, there are some fundamental phenomenological concerns that undermine the value of her writing in those contexts. In particular, I specifically picked Rand because she's a) not Western by birth and b) not initially a child of the specific Anglo-Saxon diaspora that dominates current academic and political thought. Sadly, what I discovered when I actually took her texts to task was a curious and peculiarly post-Marxist notion of the hero.

But, I'll simply contend that altruistic suicide is not an act of heroism; it is, in point of fact, supremely selfish. However, that John Galt or Winston Smith or Professor Solanka or the Magistrate or Piggy or Bernard or even Darth Vader or Obi Wan or Qui Gonn or ...

Well, everyone that isn't a comic book super hero ... except for that fact that self-obliteration has become such a fundamental component of our society that the destruction of the self has become the ultimate heroic act.

And, that's actually just **** depressing.

I'd rather live in a world where aphanisis isn't a requirement to greatness.


That just begs the question: Why haven't you posted this week's pick em's yet?
Because my editor required a book chapter by 2:30 PM EST today ... and it wasn't finished until about 20 minutes ago?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:01 pm 
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Khross wrote:
But, I'll simply contend that altruistic suicide is not an act of heroism; it is, in point of fact, supremely selfish. However, that John Galt or Winston Smith or Professor Solanka or the Magistrate or Piggy or Bernard or even Darth Vader or Obi Wan or Qui Gonn or ...

Well, everyone that isn't a comic book super hero ... except for that fact that self-obliteration has become such a fundamental component of our society that the destruction of the self has become the ultimate heroic act.

And, that's actually just **** depressing.

I'd rather live in a world where aphanisis isn't a requirement to greatness.


Let's clarify -- Dying in the act of accomplishing one's goals is not "altruistic suicide." However, I agree with you: It's more badass to win and live to tell about it than to go out in a blaze of glory.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:23 pm 
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Unless, of course, you're Jon Bon Jovi.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:06 pm 
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It worked for Davy Crockett too (alledgedly) but as a general rule, yeah.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:11 pm 
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Khross wrote:
But, I'll simply contend that altruistic suicide is not an act of heroism; it is, in point of fact, supremely selfish.

A supremely selfish act might be precisely what qualifies it as heroic in Rand's eyes. I mean, we are talking about someone who wrote "The Virtue of Selfishness", after all.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:13 pm 
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Isn't anything that is "altruistic," by definition, not selfish?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:18 pm 
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No?

We do, after all, live in a world post-Marx, post-Nietzsche, post-Freud; we live in an America dominated by the French intellectualism of the post-Nazi Era (through the mid 1970s).

"Altruistic suicide" is its own idiomatic unit--its own solitary signifier.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:35 pm 
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Can you be great in a world with no other people?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:12 pm 
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Wouldn't you be the 'Greatest' in that scenario?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:17 pm 
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Midgen wrote:
Wouldn't you be the 'Greatest' in that scenario?


So you can be great sitting around playing video games, if everybody else is missing? (for whatever sci-fi reason here)

It seems to me that the metric of greatness is based on other people, which I find interesting. Altruism and selfishness are irrelevant if you're alone.

edit: clarified


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:20 pm 
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Midgen wrote:
Wouldn't you be the 'Greatest' in that scenario?


Yes, and you'd also be the worst.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:35 pm 
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Altruistic suicide is considered the definition of heroism because of this man:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonidas

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:54 pm 
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The world would be a better place if a lot more people killed themselves.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:59 pm 
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Müs wrote:
The world would be a better place if a lot more people killed themselves.


I realize you are just making a witty remark but do you have a reason for this? That's like saying AIDS makes the world a better place.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:43 pm 
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The planet can only sustain a finite amount of humans. There is only so much food. There is only so much clean water.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:48 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
The planet can only sustain a finite amount of humans. There is only so much food. There is only so much clean water.


I hear this a lot but don't see evidence for it, or at least that amount is far greater than it is currently. Also more people roughly correlates with more scientists and engineers, especially since many countries are developing rapidly.

The sun gives us an enormous stream of energy forever. Water is recycled.

There's also a positive correlation between log(number of people on Earth) and life expectancy.

As a last point, women in Many developed countries are having less than 2 children, which might even become a problem eventually.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:35 pm 
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Hannibal wrote:
Hmm I see him as the bastard child of Ted nugentWilliam Foster from Falling Down and Bert gummer from tremors.


;)


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:30 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
The planet can only sustain a finite amount of humans. There is only so much food. There is only so much clean water.


If we can ever make fusion power work that number is probably at least 100 billion. It all comes down to energy.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:47 am 
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Corolinth wrote:
The planet can only sustain a finite amount of humans. There is only so much food. There is only so much clean water.

Yes but we aren't anywhere near that potential yet. We can feed the world without breaking a sweat if we had the ways and means of getting it to the right places.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 7:16 am 
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Rorinthas wrote:
Corolinth wrote:
The planet can only sustain a finite amount of humans. There is only so much food. There is only so much clean water.

Yes but we aren't anywhere near that potential yet. We can feed the world without breaking a sweat if we had the ways and means of getting it to the right places.
Ummm ... what part of the 20th Century did you miss?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:16 am 
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If you look at this, life expectancy has been continually increasing globally across all countries. Clearly life is getting better for people with population increase. Killing people off is totally unnecessary. Conservative types are way to quick to jump to the 'people should die' solution.

http://www.gapminder.org/world/#$majorM ... bd=0$inds=


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:21 am 
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People will die. That's not the problem. If the whole world dropped to a 2 children per couple average (slightly below the "maintenance threshold") population would begin declining sufficiently on its own.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:21 am 
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Talya wrote:
People will die. That's not the problem. If the whole world dropped to a 2 children per couple average (slightly below the "maintenance threshold") population would begin declining sufficiently on its own.


I was refuting the original claim that more people need to kill themselves [to make the world better].


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