The Glade 4.0

State run liquor stores here in WA don't sell the 190 proof.

I'm going to be in Portland Oregon in two weeks for a day or two and was wondering if I can get it there? And if so, who sells it?

Edit: No, I don't drink the stuff. It's actually the best/cleanest source of grain alcohol for dissolving shellac flakes for French Polish. :p

All I can get here is the 150 proof, or denatured alcohol, which has too many impurities (and is too dangerous) for my purposes.

It is for sale in Oregon, the 190 proof version. I've been told you won't find it in liquor stores, but in convenience stores and big box stores (Walmart, Target, etc) they carry it, sometimes. No one I messaged knew why.

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They sell it here but this is Kentucky.

^--- that and Canada are the only locales I am aware of.

You might save yourself some time and effort by siphoning diesel directly out of a Mack truck

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Build your own distillery...

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Not all of Canada.
Complete list of states and provinces where you can get the 190 proof version here.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
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Just keep an eye out for them revenuers.

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If he were willing to **** a family member would they make it available outside of Kentucky?

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

Taly, that Wiki article is not 100% accurate, which is why I posted the question here.

I'm hoping an Oregonian will chime in with something definitive... alternatively Montana or Idaho, but I don't think we have any Gladers in those states.

I bought mine at No Frills

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Ron Paul 2012

The canadian grocery store chain???

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

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Ron Paul 2012

To clarify what I mean by not 100% accurate.

I've been told by more than one person that in some states, while it's perfectly legal to sell it, many liquor stores don't stock it, and only some will even special order it.

In my state, it's not legel to sell or buy, but there is no law against possessing it (at least not yet).

There are other forms of 95% grain alcohol, used for medical and industrial purposes, and it's cheap (about $4 or $5 a gallon), but, at least here, it is strictly controlled. You have to have a special permit to buy it and it's illegal to sell it.

I don't need or use a lot of it. I have one 700ml bottle that I got from someone in Texas, and I have about 3/4 of it left.

Denatured alcohol from the hardware store will work for dissolving the shellac, but the stuff is intentionally poisoned so people won't drink it. Since in my use, I'm hand rubbing the dissolved shellac into a wood finish, there is too much exposure to use it safely. The fumes alone are enough to make me sick.

Edit:
I just sent an email off to the Northwest Region distributors asking how I can obtain the stuff.

Huh. Strangely similar branding for entirely different companies.

http://www.nofrills.ca/

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

I'm in Idaho, but I have no idea if they sell it here as I don't drink.

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Pretty sure denatured alcohol is only poisonous if you ingest it.

Usually they mix in methanol in with the ethanol- it makes it toxic to ingest (the body metabolizes methanol to formaldehyde), but it shouldn't be toxic to touch- even through long contact. You do want to ventilate the room well, but that's true for 100% ethanol as well as mixed ethanol/methanol. If you're really worried about skin contact, pick up some nitrile (not latex) gloves, and use those.

Methanol and Ethanol are very similar as solvents, I'd imagine it wouldn't matter for what you're dissolving if you had part methanol in your ethanol.

You're best off getting "rubbing alcohol" from your local drug store. It's usually a mix of ethanol and isopropanol- safe for topical use, and should dissolve what you're looking for.

According to the FDA, the "required" formulation for "rubbing alcohol" is 8 parts acetone to 1.5 parts methyl isobutyl ketone to 100 parts ethanol- giving 97% plus ethanol concentration. Should work fine for what you want.

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Darksiege: You are not a god damned vulcan homie.

Neph,

This is a heavily discussed topic on the Luthiery boards I peruse. Apparently the manufactures who denature alcohol for general use use a wide variety of things, most noxious, and many toxic, to make it unpalatable. Hand rubbing shellac is a process that involves direct skin exposure to the chemical, and the fumes, for several hours at a time, over several days. Gloves are not really an option because 'feel' is critical to the process.

There are a few brands that are made specific for finishing, like Behlen Behkol, that are somewhat suitable for finish work, but it's not available in local stores (Grizzly in Bellingham - 4 hours north is the closest place to get it).

Hand rubbing guitar finishes is hard enough using the proper materials. I'm not going to make it harder by introducing intentionally added impurities, especially if those impurities are noxious and/or toxic to the person applying them. And especially not when I can get a safer and better quality alternative (even if the Government does make it a pain in the ***).

I exchanged emails with Luxco's northwest distrubutors and was told that the stuff is readily available in Montana, and can be purchased on Oregon at some stores, although not all carry it, and those that do usually keep it behind the counter. They also told me there are no laws or restrictions in the quantity purchased, or with taking back to Washington, as long as it's for personal use (i.e. I'm not re-selling or otherwise distributing it).

I'm going to be in Oregon in a few weeks anyway. I'll just pick up a case or two while I'm there. That should last me quite a long time.

I was also linked to this form, which may indicate a way to get it legally directly from the distributors.
http://liq.wa.gov/publications/IndAlcoholinfosheet.pdf

I need to read it closely and see if it's something I can take advantage of.

Edit:
Also, the other forms of alcohol you mentioned can be used, but are not ideal. Some won't work at all. They do not dissolve the shellac as readily, and take longer to 'flash off', making the application much more arduous. They may also leave impurities behind in the finish. French Polish is a very sensitive process that involves building many extremely thin layers of shellac. The alcohol is used as a solvent to dissolve the shellac buttons/flakes into liquid form (1lb of shellac to a gallon of alcohol). Anything in the alcohol that doesn't evaporate ends up in the finish, and may cause problems with the shellac (haziness, crazing, not hardening, etc...). I can't imagine anything worse that spending a couple of days hand rubbing a finish onto a several thousand dollar custom made instrument, only to have it turn into a gummy mess, or crystallize and flake off.

I guess I don't worry too much about it since we can easily get pure ethanol in the labs here.

I've flipped through a ton of manufacturer pages, and I can see no addition to denatured alcohol that should make it toxic in any manner other than ingestion. Many of the additives, actually, aren't toxic even by ingestion- but rather are exceptionally bitter or induce vomiting to prevent people from drinking it.

Mostly, however, the additives are methanol and isopropanol, neither of which should be toxic through skin contact.

That said- what do you think about using rubbing alcohol? It should work fine, has less additives than denatured alcohol, and is made for skin application, so is decidedly non-toxic.

As for introducing impurities into the finish- my understanding is that ethanol is used both because it can dissolve the shelac and because it evaporates easily at room temperature. None of the other additives (acetone, methyl isobutyl ketone, methanol, isopropanol) should change those properties. They won't interact with the shelac, and they have similar physical properties to ethanol for applying the finish, especially in small quantities.

The primary reason behind the minor additives to denatured/rubbing alcohol are that for something to be considered "food grade", it has to be distilled under certain conditions. In order to prevent people from drinking absolute ethanol intended for non-consumption based uses (it's much, much cheaper), they add small amounts of substances that either make it toxic to ingest (methanol, isopropanol) or unpleasant (substances to induce vomiting or give it an extremely bitter taste).

In fact, one of the primary purposes of denatured alcohol is for shelacing. I have yet to find a single bit of evidence for dermal toxicity from any type of denatured/rubbing alcohol, but if it makes you uncomfortable, that's understandable as well.

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Darksiege: You are not a god damned vulcan homie.

Responding to your edit-

In that case, you *don't* want absolute ethanol. Absolute ethanol contains benzene, which probably will mess up your finish, and is toxic as well.

You want 95% ethanol, which is an ethanol/water mixture- the small amount of water shouldn't mess up your finish too much.

That said, methanol or isopropanol would be a much better addition than water for your purposes- both have similar solvent properties to ethanol, and both will evaporate much more easily than water (methanol evaporates faster than ethanol, isopropanol slightly slower).

From the wikipedia page on shellac, the desired solvent for applying a good coating is a mixture of ethanol/methanol. This implies that your best bet would be to find a brand of denatured alcohol that is *only* cut with methanol- it will have lower water content than 190 proof alcohol, and the added methanol won't effect your product.

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Darksiege: You are not a god damned vulcan homie.

Something like this should work well- if you check the MSDS sheet you'll see that it's listed as 90-100% ethanol, with minor impurities from methanol, hexone and ethyl acetate- all of which have lower boiling than ethanol- and the mixture should have a slightly lower boiling point than the highest boiling component.

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Darksiege: You are not a god damned vulcan homie.

I have a can of Klean Strip "Green" (as opposed to the "Klean Strip XLS400", which is obnoxious). It's not as noxious as the other brands of denatured alcohol I've tried, but it still gives me a headache standing over it for more than a few minutes. The test panels I made with it were unsatisfactory. The surface stayed sticky too long, causing the muneca to bind, and stick.

I'm not heating it up, so I'm not concerned about boiling point (am I)?

I've been using a bottle of Everclear someone sent me from Texas. It's working very well. It has no odor at all. The application process I'm using calls for it specifically, so as long as I can get it, I'm going to use it.

If I run out and can't get my hands on Everclear, I'll probably have to fall back to Bekhol, or Klean Strip and work on an alternative process. If that happens, I'll most likely just give up the hand finish process and send my instruments to a spray finisher.

Boiling point determines how fast it evaporates... Too fast leaves cracks, too slow leaves it sticky.

Note that Klean-Strip has two very different formulations of denatured alcohol. The one I linked with 90%+ ethanol and a blue-ish can with 55% ethanol. Checking the MSDS sheet will give you the exact composition.

As to the dizziness- that may be in par due to the additives, but breathing in pure ethanol fumes will have the same effect- you want good ventilation on either case.

If the everclear is working though, go with it.

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Darksiege: You are not a god damned vulcan homie.

Yes, I edited my post. It's the "Green" version I have... I bought it based on a safety review done by the Guild of American Luthiers in the spring 2011 American Lutherie magazine.

I would have to wear a respirator and work much more slowly to use it. Neither of those things are going to happen.

Everclear is ideal for it's near complete lack of odor and working properties, so I'm going to go with it.

I wonder if you could buy a case directly from an Oregon distributor

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

Not from a distributor. They only sell wholesale.

I'm going to be in Portland in early November. I'll call around down there and see if I can have a case or two (depending on cost) waiting for me.

I know from a reliable source ( a luthier friend in Spokane) that I can buy it just inside the Montana state line. It's a little further to drive there, if the Portland thing doesn't work out. I'm not too keen on driving the passes over the Cascades and through Eastern Washington in the winter, but I'm pretty sure what I have on hand will last me till spring. =)