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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:48 am 
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Corolinth wrote:
Self-Referential Awareness wrote:
(2:12:02 PM) Kaffis: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7313&p=173516#p173516
(2:12:54 PM) Corolinth: I really stopped taking that thread even remotely seriously.
(2:14:08 PM) Corolinth: If all of the people playing high and mighty and trumpeting the Tea Party's moral superiority would read back over their, "When the Tea Party protested corporate bailouts, everyone called us racist!" comments and think a little harder, they'd see how stupid they sound.
(2:14:43 PM) Corolinth: If you're both basically protesting the same thing - the bank bailouts - then why are you at each other's **** throats?
Maybe if all of you worthless sons of ***** would stop sniping at each other over political blogs and news website comment boxes, and embrace the common ideas that you all profess to have (i.e. pissed off about bailouts), you could actually get something done!

It was okay when Bush did it, but it's evil when Obama does it? **** conservatives!

It was evil when Bush did it, but it's okay when Obama does it? **** liberals!

This is why I want to round all of you up in a giant sack and use it as a pinata.


Yeah, that sounds great, but... it just means you aren't paying attention. The bank bailouts is one issue, where there happens to be agreement on the problem. It's not even close to the only issue, and the solution to that problem is not at all agreed upon.

If you put a Tea Partier and an Occupier in the same room and said, "Bailouts suck! Go!", you'd get a unified "yeah, we should..." and then it's over.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:51 am 
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http://www.lacan.com/zizpopulism.htm

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Corolinth wrote:
Facism is not a school of thought, it is a racial slur.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:55 am 
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Corolinth wrote:
Socialism is the long and painful transition between capitalism and capitalism.


LOL


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:56 am 
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Khross wrote:
http://www.lacan.com/zizpopulism.htm


Not going to read that and try to guess your point. If you have a point.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:58 am 
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Of course you're not going to read it; you haven't read it any of the 35 other times I've linked it ...

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Facism is not a school of thought, it is a racial slur.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:13 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Khross wrote:
http://www.lacan.com/zizpopulism.htm


Not going to read that and try to guess your point. If you have a point.

It was an interesting read, though difficult, that follows the point you were attempting to make. By difficult, not in concept of understanding, but in being able to actually read it. I'm not sure if it was originally written in other than English (my guess) and poorly translated, or just written by someone without an editor. The extra words in sentences and the changes in tense and object had me re-reading sentences frequently rather than flowing with the thoughts being presented.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:18 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Of course you're not going to read it; you haven't read it any of the 35 other times I've linked it ...


Well, I saw it twice in this thread, with no discussion, no point, no statement that it's even directed at what I'm saying.

As to the other 35 times, well, I can't say I pay that much attention to everything you post, but if it was posted with the same intellectual laziness that this was, I suspect I ignored it then, too.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:19 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Khross wrote:
http://www.lacan.com/zizpopulism.htm


Not going to read that and try to guess your point. If you have a point.

It was an interesting read, though difficult, that follows the point you were attempting to make. By difficult, not in concept of understanding, but in being able to actually read it. I'm not sure if it was originally written in other than English (my guess) and poorly translated, or just written by someone without an editor. The extra words in sentences and the changes in tense and object had me re-reading sentences frequently rather than flowing with the thoughts being presented.


Thanks. Lunch is over, maybe I'll check it out later.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:30 pm 
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Ladas:

I'm fairly certain Žižek wrote it in English; he writes most things in English.

Arathain:

Considering I link that article every time someone talks about the "divisive" nature of American politics, I've long since stopped explaining its contents.

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Facism is not a school of thought, it is a racial slur.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:46 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Like I've suggested many times, we could have a flat income tax that applies to all forms of income and is set at the same rate for everyone.

Why is the obsession with income?

Why not a flat sales tax?

Why is it we need to take our cut out of "success," and not "lifestyle"?

Taxing spending means that if you budget well and live frugally, you're not penalized for saving and retiring early if you're successful. Taxing income means that even if you're successful, it's harder to save. And then, if people have their way and you made wise investments with your savings, we'll tax you again after you retire, too!


I don't have an ideological problem with a sales tax, I just see it having to be set incredibly high to deal with all the people that will dodge it. (resort to barter, buy foreign where the tax doesn't exist, under-the-table sales) Also every time I see a sales/consumption tax proposal the proponents are always coming out with an incredibly low number compared to current income tax rates and claiming that it's revenue neutral when it really can't be, which makes me very suspicious about the goals of the people advocating it. Not to mention the cataclysm that will come out of forcing a tax system that encourages saving onto an economy that runs on debt.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:49 pm 
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Khross wrote:
It's a delusion, Kaffis. The individuals obsessed with taxing income and wealth have this delusional notion that because I'm rich, they aren't. It's completely unfathomable to Xequecal or Monty or TheRiov that I got where I am through my own efforts. I must have, somehow, disproportionately benefited from some ephemeral and amorphous social contract to save the money and acquire the things I have. They've been telling me this for close to a decade now.


While we're projecting opinions, can I complain about how the rich have this delusional notion that says that everyone who is poor is that way because they're lazy or morally weak, without exception?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:50 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Ladas:

I'm fairly certain Žižek wrote it in English; he writes most things in English.

He needs a better editor.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:57 pm 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavoj_%C5%BDi%C5%BEek

Probably not ...

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Corolinth wrote:
Facism is not a school of thought, it is a racial slur.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:05 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Like I've suggested many times, we could have a flat income tax that applies to all forms of income and is set at the same rate for everyone.

Why is the obsession with income?

Why not a flat sales tax?

Why is it we need to take our cut out of "success," and not "lifestyle"?

Taxing spending means that if you budget well and live frugally, you're not penalized for saving and retiring early if you're successful. Taxing income means that even if you're successful, it's harder to save. And then, if people have their way and you made wise investments with your savings, we'll tax you again after you retire, too!


I don't have an ideological problem with a sales tax, I just see it having to be set incredibly high to deal with all the people that will dodge it. (resort to barter, buy foreign where the tax doesn't exist, under-the-table sales) Also every time I see a sales/consumption tax proposal the proponents are always coming out with an incredibly low number compared to current income tax rates and claiming that it's revenue neutral when it really can't be, which makes me very suspicious about the goals of the people advocating it. Not to mention the cataclysm that will come out of forcing a tax system that encourages saving onto an economy that runs on debt.

The reason it always seems so low is pretty simple -- there aren't tax shelters, exemptions, or credits. Keep in mind that, under our current system, the number of people who pay no or almost no tax is approaching 50%. When they're paying a little instead of nothing, that adds up quick.

As for people dodging the system -- buying foreign (should) have the tax imposed at customs if it's not been reported by the foreign retailer, and under-the-table or barter sales would only really be feasible in person-to-person transactions (and, honestly, how often do you think that gets reported as income to the IRS in the first place?). Corporations and brick and mortar retailers would be (are? I'm sure there has to be some kind of study out there with regards to state sales tax fraud vs. income tax fraud; currently state sales tax and "buying foreign" is very difficult to police, but that's simply because we don't have a form of customs between state lines -- a Federal sales tax would have far less trouble there) far easier to detect and police than individuals' filings.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:14 pm 
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Saying he needs an editor, or a better one is not an indictment of his intellect or qualifications to discuss the topics, or in the case of the article you linked, hypothesis about the meaning of other theorists.

Quote:
it effectively IS part of the strategy of the capital to held in check the workers' demands


There are other instances where the word "the" appears to be randomly inserted into sentences, as if he was following one train and jumped mid sentence in what he wanted to write. I do that as well, so I am by no means holding myself as some model of the perfect author.

He also has the tendency to over write the sentences, so that by the time you are through the 4th set of () or comma notations, you have lost track of the original point of the sentence.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:45 pm 
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One should be attentive here to how even those elements which appear as pure Rightist racism are effectively a displaced version of workers' protests: of course there is racism in demanding the end of immigration of foreign workers which pose a threat to our employment; however, one should bear in mind the simple fact that the influx of immigrant workers from the post-Communist countries is not the consequence of some multiculturalist tolerance - it effectively IS part of the strategy of the Capitol to hold in check the workers' demands - this is why, in the US, Bush did more for the legalization of the status of Mexican illegal emigrants than the Democrats caught in the trade union pressures.


^ That's a period, not a sentence. While that might seem like a quibble, it's rather important. Also, that's how it appears in the printed version in a Journal. I'd suggest your transcription problems are likely the culprit of a bad web-monkey without proofreaders.

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Corolinth wrote:
Facism is not a school of thought, it is a racial slur.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:50 pm 
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Odd. The part I quoted was directly from the link you supplied. My page says "held", yours says "hold".

Also interesting, that same sentence (which you included, but I did not), the sentence in the links says:

"immigration of foreign workers which poser a threat".

If it is some weird browser thing (not sure how that is the case), then I take back the comment about obvious grammatical mistakes.

However, I stand by my critique provided in the PM response I just sent.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:52 pm 
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Print vs. Web, Ladas ...

I found the easiest public link to an article I physically have in my hand. I just copied that statement from the print version, not the website ... which I haven't proofread.

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Facism is not a school of thought, it is a racial slur.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:02 pm 
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Yeah, I took your link to be the source material, not a transcribed re-write by someone else.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:17 pm 
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Most things of that nature which end up on public websites are transcriptions of something that got published somewhere in a journal. That said, Žižek is a crazy Slovenian communist, and even he thinks the factionalism in contemporary American and European politics is pointless; indeed, factionalism has replaced politics and politicians as the de facto political theatre of the day. <-- Dime version of that article.

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Corolinth wrote:
Facism is not a school of thought, it is a racial slur.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:30 pm 
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With an undercurrent of lamentation that the left has been usurped by elitists that fail to recognize the tools used in the past while at the same time being beaten at the game by their ideological opposites.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:33 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Most things of that nature which end up on public websites are transcriptions of something that got published somewhere in a journal. That said, Žižek is a crazy Slovenian communist, and even he thinks the factionalism in contemporary American and European politics is pointless; indeed, factionalism has replaced politics and politicians as the de facto political theatre of the day. <-- Dime version of that article.


Heh, he's been speaking at occupy ralies lately.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:37 pm 
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Žižek has a vested interest in the resource/wealth gap debate; and, to that end, Occupy Wall Street isn't that far off the Euro-zone arguments.

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Corolinth wrote:
Facism is not a school of thought, it is a racial slur.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:42 pm 
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Meant to post this yesterday. Video at the link:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/ ... ow_it.html

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Michael Moore tells CNN's Anderson Cooper that capitalism as we know it is over. Moore say capitalism is where "the problem" is. Moore was broadcasting from "Occupy Oakland."

"So, let's not use the old definition where we think -- when we say capitalism, we're talking about 2011. 2011 capitalism is an evil system set up to benefit the few at the expense of the many. That's what happened, and that's what people are tired of. Which is too bad for the capitalists because I think a lot of people, perhaps in this crowd, probably used to support the 'old-style' of capitalism," Moore said on CNN.

"So, what system do you want?" Anderson Cooper asked Moore.

"Well there's no system right now that exists. We're going to create that system. This movement, this movement in the next year, or two, or few years is going to create a democratic economic system. That's the most important thing. Whatever we come up with it has to have at its core -- the American people are going to be the one's controlling this economy. We're going to have a say, a big say, the say in how this economy is run," Moore said.

Moore says the Occupy group and himself have "declared" the current economic system as over. "It's just a matter of time until we make that happen," Moore said.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:44 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Khross wrote:
http://www.lacan.com/zizpopulism.htm


Not going to read that and try to guess your point. If you have a point.

It was an interesting read, though difficult, that follows the point you were attempting to make. By difficult, not in concept of understanding, but in being able to actually read it. I'm not sure if it was originally written in other than English (my guess) and poorly translated, or just written by someone without an editor. The extra words in sentences and the changes in tense and object had me re-reading sentences frequently rather than flowing with the thoughts being presented.


I made a very sincere attempt to read it some time ago. After spending several hours on it trying to track what the guy was saying, I basically gave up and decided that if he wasn't smart enough to use good sentence structure, his point wasn't important enough to be worth my time.


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