The Glade 4.0

The Nurse Practitioner degree is a post-graduate program. There is also a Master of Sciences in Nursing Program offered by some schools.

Surprised me, but I live in a cave and fire scares me.

_________________
The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones

Except that's not a Red Herring. Pregnancy inextricably is linked to the with the presensce of a fetus, by definition. Whether or not the Fetus has rights, I do not know. It's not a question I think anyone can answer.

However, if we posit it does have rights, then those rights are necessarily violated during an abortion. This doesn't distract from or divert from their position that abortion can retroactively eliminate a consequence. Using that absurd logic, I could kill a human a retroactively eliminate the consequence of his conception whenever it occurred.

_________________
"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones

It's only a baby if you want to keep it. Otherwise its just a lump of meat that a woman should be able to eject whenever she has the inkling to.

_________________
The Dude abides.

Appeal to emotion, Screeling.

_________________


It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

I was actually going to say, "Yeah, from purely practical and legal standpoints, that's about right."

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

Granted, but it reflects the current legal standards in place via precedent, in which fetuses can be homicided in a double-homicide, and yet are not afforded any rights to be violated by the mother that wants to kill it.

It IS indeed a preposterous notion, and I'm glad that you seem to recognize that. Our laws should not be appeals to emotion.

_________________
"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

My position on those laws is similar to my position on abortion. Specifically, if the pregnancy is far enough along, I think you can prosecute it as a crime.

_________________


It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Could you kindly be more specific? This statement seems to be a solid starting point for reaching some sort of agreement on principle or practicality.

_________________

Indeed. Can we quantify "far enough along," please?

_________________
The Dude abides.

Huh? What angle?

I've already stated my position, I'm just showing evidence as to the inconsistancy in law as it's been ruled, and now putting forth an example to further show how inconsistant the current laws are. In both of my examples, those people were charged with the killing of two human beings. The law ruled that those children were indeed live humans. But another law says we can terminate those live beings because it's under the third trimester.

I want consistancy in the law. Either it is a live human being with the basic rights we all have, or it is not. It's been ruled both ways.

_________________
A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill

This article, I think, lays out the case that life begins when real brain wave activity begins. This article gives the actual science behind that time frame, which runs counter to common pro-life material. In the end, the author concludes that such activity can be measured on an EKG about halfway through the pregnancy. She does a good job of debunking the arguments made that such things can be measured as early as 40 days.

Currently, brain wave activity (as the author points out) is the measure by which we see life and death, medically. It isn't heart function. It stands to reason if we call "no brain wave activity" dead, then we can reasonably call "brain wave activity" life.

_________________


It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

If that's the case, then why did you reject my position that it should be 17 weeks?

_________________

If I did, it must have been poor math on my part, lol. My apologies. I still feel that after that point a woman still has the right to terminate a pregnancy if she is in danger or the fetus is non-viable (i.e., has some lethal genetic disorder, etc).

_________________


It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

If the mother is in danger of what?

_________________
"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

If her health is in danger from the pregnancy.

_________________


It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Is it safe to assume that you're still going with the "mental health" à la Dr. Tiller?

_________________
"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

I don't know. I'm not a medical expert. However, Kansas law required that Dr. Tiller not only show that sort of threat (mental or physical), but that his findings be signed off on by another physician. He was brought into court twice on charges related to that law, and was exonerated both times. In other words, he proved a very real threat to the mental health of the mother.

Now, understand that I have a slightly different take on that law. I think it's poorly made. The child, if healthy, should be allowed a chance at life. That being said, the mother should not be saddled with an unwanted pregnancy if it is a danger to her mental health. Remember, mental health issues can kill. It's just as real a medical problem as any other disease.

So what do we do? That's a tough question, and not one I have a very good answer for. Where do the mother's rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness intersect with the child's? If there is a serious threat to her mental health, I have a hard time justifying a state-forced birth.

_________________


It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Troy, an old roommate of mine, had a girlfriend who got pregnant.

After she broke up with him, she decided she didn't want the baby anymore. Dr. Tiller performed the abortion.

No medical reason, no threat to her health. She just didn't want a baby from an ex-boyfriend.

So whatever the law required, Dr. Tiller worked around this, and performed abortions for women who just didn't want the baby, personally knowing the people involved.

This works for me. It's a tangible proven fact. Now we've got to work on getting the laws in line with the technology.

_________________
A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill

Its probably for the best. There's too many people in this world as it is, much less adding another that isn't particularly wanted.

_________________

Holy shitsnacks!

Its impossible that she got the abortion in the late term, when those laws apply, unless there was a threat to her health or the fetus was non viable. She still had a right to terminate that pregnancy under the law if it was before whatever cutoff Kansas law has.

_________________


It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

So is this a revision of your support of "about two trimesters" as the cutoff?

_________________
"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

I'll take that as a yes. I just found it strange that 90% of Tiller's abortions were performed for mental health reasons, and neither he nor Neuhaus had any expertise in the field. I guess if two General Practioners sign off on it, that's good enough. I'll go with the University Distinguished Professor of Psychiatry at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, former director of the Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Science at the Johns Hopkins University and former Psychiatrist-in-Chief at the Johns Hopkins Hospital, Paul R. McHugh, when he said that he saw no evidence of even one incidence of substantial and irreversible harm to the women Tiller operated on.


Skip to about 6:50 if you want the concise version.
[youtube]mviFMpy_sBU[/youtube]

_________________
"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

That's an interesting page Monte linked. If accurate, it's an interesting coincidence that recognizable brain activity begins in earnest at the same point as the same point of development as earliest premature birth survival.

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

NP doesn't have to be post-graduate, it depends upon the state (they're definitely graduate degrees though).
PA's are also graduate degrees.
Also a graduate program is the RNA (Registered Nurse Anesthetist).


Both PA's and NP's are in the top 5 jobs in the country.

_________________
“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine