The Glade 4.0

I'm pretty confident a few of us would have handled it differently...

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

Stop projecting. You can be confident that you wouldn't have, if that's actually the case, but some of us hold ourselves to a higher standard. Not to mention the fact that it hardly takes "a Superman cape" to stop a pervert from raping a child in a shower and then to call the police. Nor does it require a genious to know that such incidents should be reported to the police, and not a university damage control unit.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

Having a sack does help though.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

No one said they would "swoop in" unless the police could not be reasonably summoned to the scene. In that case, quite frankly, I think most people's basic protective instincts towards children of the people here would have caused them to attack the perpetrator even if they did not believe they could win a fight.

Your personal skepticism is not evidence to the contrary, by the way, nor is it as cool or insightful as you seem to think it is. Our society does not tout sitting back and letting the authorites handle it when the authorities cannot reasonably be expected to respond to an emergency in time.

I'm quite confident that if it were me, I could pretty easily defeat a child molester, even an in-shape football-coaching child molester in hand-to-hand combat, and I'm pretty sure Rynar could too, especially with the advantage of surprise. Most of the other male posters could as well, and as for the females, I think sheer rage, any improvised weapon, plus surprise mean they could have a good chance of winning. If that female happened to be Kirra, she also has the advantage of excellent physical fitness, some martial arts training and experience in hand-to-hand combat.

Like Rynar said, stop projecting. Seriously, start hitting the gym or something. I could stand to myself but.. ****, what the **** do you think I put myself through all the **** I;ve ever been through for if I can't even stop a kid from getting raped?

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

I dunno about you guys, but even if I see some guy or even a child getting beaten to death in an alley, and I somehow knew that reporting this would cause actual career loss, (IE, structurally unemployed, can't work in the same field ever again, need to learn a new skillset and start over) sorry, but I'm keeping my mouth shut. That's not even taking into account the very real risk of having your entire personal life and history microscopically examined by the defense team and then getting character assassinated on the witness stand like Mark Fuhrman or Casey Anthony's parents.

Yeah this.

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

Absolutely contemptable and scummy beyond any words I can come up with. This just might be the single most vile thing I've ever read posted to these boards as long as I've been coming here, over every single iteration.

Where is your spine? Where is your decency and humanity? It would be the most deserved kind of cosmic justice for you to find yourself in that alley one day, while those who think like you pass you by.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

Did you ever read that case about how a woman was raped and then beaten to death in a parking lot in full view of hundreds of high-rise housing units and not a single one of them called the police or did anything to help? And they had nothing to lose by reporting it, yet still didn't. I don't think I'm an abnormal or contemptible human being because I would go to my employer-approved reporting point for such a thing rather than report it to the police if my career is on the line.

You would admittedly silently stand witness to child rape and brutal murder, granting the acts your implied acceptance, such that you could gain some small comfort from continued association with a den of snakes who would seek to do the same? And you think that's acceptable? You don't judge yourself contemptible? Funny thing is, you don't get to sit in social judgement of yourself. The rest of us do. And here is my rendered judgement: You have no character. You have no value. You have nothing enviable about your personal code of morals and ethics. You are self-serving and shallow with no depth of character. And you deserve your alley.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

X:
The case you're citing, that of Kitty Genovese, has been misrepresented over and over. The police were called, and, it should be noted, "hundreds of high-rise housing units" can't really do anything about, well, anything.

Nonetheless, I know which kind of people I choose to associate myself with, and which I will continue to point out to my children as beneath contempt. They have to live with themselves for the rest of their lives, knowing that the heart of a craven beats within their chest. A coward dies a thousand deaths...

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

I hate to break this to you, but there are professions that can require you to stand by and watch a child die even though you could have acted to save them. I don't think the added element of catching the perpetrator in the act changes the moral calculus much.

You are a counselor in a children's summer camp. While you are working, one of the kids goes into anaphylactic shock and their airway blocks up. The EMTs are far away. The child loses consciousness and is choking to death. You have the child's Epi-Pen, but you have received no official training in its use. Can you save their life by giving them the injection? In many states, the answer is no, and doing so will probably end your career, as well as subject you to civil and criminal penalties.

The GA's name is McQuery (sp?), he is now an assistant coach.

One question, what does diddling mean exactly? Because I've read McQuery's account of what he witnessed. That is beyond what I think of as diddling and is just flat out rape. I can excuse the GA for not stopping it, and instead fleeing. Seeing something so completely unexpected and horrifying as someone you've known for years and likely considered a friend and mentor, raping a 10 year-old boy, it triggers the fight or flight mechanism. Instinct takes over. For some, that would be to beat the crap out of him, for others, that would be fleeing. I would like to think I would do differently, but unless I'm put in that situation, I can't know for sure.

The GA reported it to his boss (Paterno) as soon as possible. Paterno and the GA then reported it to the AD and the VP that was also in charge of the campus police. That is the limit of their legal obligation. The AD and VP then told Sandusky not to bring boys onto campus anymore, and that was that. Horrifying response by them. But at this point Paterno and McQuery haven't done anything legally or morally wrong.

That was 2002. It is now 2011, nine years later. During that time, Sandusky has continued to use the athletic facilities, and even had an office there where he ran his charity to "help" underprivileged children, where he had access to young children. He was in the facilities as recently as last week. Both Paterno and McQuery knew this, and continued to do nothing for the past nine years. This is where they enter into the territory of complete and utter moral failure. Some say that McQuery might not have told him everything. Paterno told the grand jury that he was told that Sandusky was fondling a 10 year old boy or some sexual activity. Now if that is true, that is somewhat more vague than "Yeah, I saw Sandusky anally raping a boy", but it is definitely enough to deserve action.

I totally feel for fans and alumni of Penn State. Paterno is a man that built that program. If this scandal never happens, he goes down as on of the all time great college football coaches, and as the symbol of Penn State University. Not just revered by Penn State fans, but all fans of college football.

Now? Now he represents shame. In one fell swoop, this scandal has destroyed that legacy. Woody Hayes ending his career by punching a player from the opposing team tarnished his legacy. The NCAA violations and lying by Jim Tressel at Ohio State tarnished his legacy. But Joe Paterno's legacy has not been tarnished, but destroyed. It has ripped the heart out of Penn State University. You can't separate Penn State from Joe Paterno, and you can't separate Joe Paterno from this tragic scandal.

If you actually read about that case (presuming you mean Kitty Genovese) it's been determined that a great deal of the reason no one got involved was that A) no one actually saw what was taking place and B) the more people who witness something, the more there's a "someone else will take care of it" effect. People are far more likely to act when they are by themself or are with a few people rather than when they are anonymously part of a crowd.

Try to understand your examples before citing them, thanks.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Such as? Even if this is true, being required to, and making a choice between maybe getting fired and saving a kid are not the same as having a legal requirement to let a kid die.



Bullshit. In any state where Good Samaritan laws protection are restricted to those who have received first aid training, a camp counselor would A) be trained in First Aid as a matter of course and B) would be trained in administering Epi-Pens if, indeed, these require training - which they probably do not beyond basic instruction in their mechanics since fairly young children are expected to administer them to themselves.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Really, you went from child rape and murder to not administering aid you aren't qualified to give? Really? That's going to be your justification? Just let the hamster run in it's wheel a while longer, I'm sure you can rationalize your cowardice better than that.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

I truly have no words to respond to this. Yes I know of the bystander syndrome but every time I hear of it it disgusts me.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

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I met this six-year-old child, with this blank, pale, emotionless face and, the blackest eyes... the devil's eyes. I spent eight years trying to reach him, and then another seven trying to keep him locked up because I realized what was living behind that boy's eyes was purely and simply... evil

Pardon me if I don't put much stock in the moral calculus of a person who would grant silent approval to a co-worker raping a child.



Dance about in your apologists cape all you want, scummy and reprehensible is still scummy and reprehensible.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

You disgust me.

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"If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me." - Alice R. Longworth

"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun." - Ash Williams

Oh, I have no illusion that I'm going to change anyone's opinion of my opinion in this case. I'm just pointing out that if you're going to label anyone with one similar to mine, namely anyone who is not willing to risk their life and guaranteed sacrifice their livelihood to save the life of someone else, as "beneath contempt," just realize that you have to apply that label to a LOT of people. I picked that scenario because in my opinion it requires far less bravery to intervene in such a situation than it does to intervene against someone that you know is willing to commit murder, and society still requires that you do nothing.



Now you're strawmanning me. I didn't say "maybe get fired," I said guaranteed career loss and having to start from scratch.

Except that "maybe get fired" is exactly what we're talking about in the case at hand. I'm not strawmanning you; I'm addressing the situation in question. This "guaranteed career loss" is something you've completely fabricated.

Are you seriously asserting that there's some job field out there where you'd not only get fired but have to learn a completely new job because no one would ever hire you again in that field? Really?

"Oh yeah, make sure you don't hire that guy! He reports child rape, we can't have that in our shop, no siree!!"

Not only that but I have never, ever seen anyone seriously use Kitty Genovese or bystander syndrome as an excuse to make a concious decision not to help. Panic? Sure. Not get involved because you thought someone else was handling it? Sure.

"Oh, well, I'm not doing **** because there might be some way some how I'd get in trouble for this kid getting raped, and that getting in trouble is something that might cause me not to be employable in this field because of some utterly hypothetical reason.. because, you know, prospective employers never take into account the circumstances of a prior termination! No, I better let that 10-year-old take an **** so I don't have to fill out a job application."

How would you ever face your own kids? "Well sweety, daddy just couldn't stop that boy from getting hurt by that bad man because he might lose his job. Don't worry sweety, if something like that were to happen to you, there's a really good chance some other grown up might actually give a **** about you not getting raped."

I don't think a thread on this board has ever made me want to vomit before.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

You know what you said, I know what you said, hell, the whole board knows what you said. All your rationalization and spewing out tangential hypotheticals doesn't change what you are.



You can't even keep track of your own spin:

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

I know what I said. I'll say it again, just so you can't claim I'm trying to weasel out of it. I would not intervene in such a situation, and if I was bound by an employment agreement or code of conduct (which is what I presume is being talked about when Title IX is mentioned) that required me to report the incident to someone other than the police, under pain of firing and blacklisting, then I would report it to them instead. You can judge me if you want, I really can't stop you, but I don't believe that this position is a horrendous one that is anathema to the majority. If it was, then we wouldn't have such codes of conduct in the first place.

Is there anything that would cause you to change your willingness to act?

I mean, seeing a 10 year old being raped is pretty damn bad. I'm just wondering how bad would it have to be, before you acted?

How you think a code of "conduct" that requires you to not report child rape to the police is acceptable is beyond me. I am not convinced such a code is legal either. I suspect this is from a misreading of codes of conduct and legal requirements that don't envision such situations.

I don't know where you're getting this "under pain of firing and blacklisting" from either. The worst that could be said is that you might be fired in the situation that actually occurred. Why you're using a situation where you'd get not only fired, but blacklisted is beyond me. If people would actually blacklist you for reporting a child getting raped, why the **** would you ever want a job with such douchebags ever again?

What if the building were on fire? Would you take a kid out of a burning building, or would you be so worried someone might think you were a child molester yourself that you wouldn't act?

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

No, I wouldn't intervene because I'd be afraid of being killed by the attacker who is clearly willing to murder a child. I'm not a big or athletic person. I guess that makes me a coward, but it's the truth. As far as reporting goes, I would absolutely report it to the designated individual if I was bound by an employment code of conduct to report it to them instead of the police. That is the entire issue with the Title IX here in the thread, right? That this guy is supposed to go to a University official instead of the police? That's how I've been reading it. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to assume the institution is going to do nothing and bury it and sacrifice my career after the fact when the victim is already victimized.