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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:29 am 
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Rynar wrote:
I'm sorry. I didn't realize morals ran parallel to federal mandates. My bad. I guess I'll have to rethink my entire personal philosophy.
Rynar, you've demonstrated an unwillingness to consider the untenable legal position Joe Paterno is/was in as an employee of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania and Federal requirements as a First Reporter. As I said above, he loses his job either way; and in both cases, no matter what happens ... he's subject to criminal and civil liability. That the University dismissed him for breach of contract in the absence of criminal charges, indicates Paterno reported it to his Athletic Director (mandated by his contract) and a legally acceptable law enforcement agency. As he was not a direct witness and only had second hand information of an alleged act, what more do you want done?

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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:36 am 
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Khross wrote:
Rynar wrote:
I'm sorry. I didn't realize morals ran parallel to federal mandates. My bad. I guess I'll have to rethink my entire personal philosophy.
Rynar, you've demonstrated an unwillingness to consider the untenable legal position Joe Paterno is/was in as an employee of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania and Federal requirements as a First Reporter. As I said above, he loses his job either way; and in both cases, no matter what happens ... he's subject to criminal and civil liability. That the University dismissed him for breach of contract in the absence of criminal charges, indicates Paterno reported it to his Athletic Director (mandated by his contract) and a legally acceptable law enforcement agency. As he was not a direct witness and only had second hand information of an alleged act, what more do you want done?


You are absolutely correct. I am unwilling to consider his untenable legal condition.

Paterno aided the University in a cover-up with his silence, which enabled a known predator to continue to abuse new victims. Additionally, he continued to make University resources available to this predator to continue to rape little boys long after he and other University officials knew of the abuse.

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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:38 am 
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Rynar wrote:
You are absolutely correct. I am unwilling to consider his untenable legal condition.
You're wrong, both morally and ethically on this position.
Rynar wrote:
Paterno aided the University in a cover-up with his silence, which enabled a known predator to continue to abuse new victims. Additionally, he continued to make University resources available to this predator to continue to rape little boys long after he and other University officials knew of the abuse.
No, actually, Paterno did not. Pennsylvania State chose to dismiss Sandusky in good standing (in the absence criminal prosecution); consequently, access to University Facilities as a Professor Emeritus is a contractual obligation on the part of Penn State. Paterno could not deny Sandusky access.

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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:43 am 
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Khross wrote:
Rynar wrote:
You are absolutely correct. I am unwilling to consider his untenable legal condition.
You're wrong, both morally and ethically on this position.


Aiding a child rapist would be the correct choice then. Good to know.


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Rynar wrote:
Paterno aided the University in a cover-up with his silence, which enabled a known predator to continue to abuse new victims. Additionally, he continued to make University resources available to this predator to continue to rape little boys long after he and other University officials knew of the abuse.
No, actually, Paterno did not. Pennsylvania State chose to dismiss Sandusky in good standing (in the absence criminal prosecution); consequently, access to University Facilities as a Professor Emeritus is a contractual obligation on the part of Penn State. Paterno could not deny Sandusky access.


No. See, Penn State doesn't get to decide to absolve itself, or Joe Paterno, of wrongdoing by creating an alternative legal system under which there is no culpability. Essentially your argument is that because of Penn State's employment contract, they get to invent an alternative reality in which children were not getting raped, and the rest of us are obligated to indulge this fantasy because Penn State says so.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:46 am 
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Khross wrote:
Firing Joe Paterno for breach of contract is a strong indicator he met the legal requirements mandated by Federal law as a First Reporter; consequently, any questions about his moral culpability should seriously dissipate.

I disagree. Its considerably more likely that choice of reason for termination was the least likely to result in further legal trouble for the University.

It also does not remove his moral culpability as you have suggested. It does support that he thought he was doing the right the thing at the time the event occurred by reporting the incident to the technical head of the police department, or essentially reporting it to the police. It does not however absolve him of the 9 years since that time, to include allowing the individual to continue to use his football facilities, much less sitting on the Board of the Directors for this individual's "charity" and not raising the issues there.


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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:47 am 
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Rynar wrote:
No. See, Penn State doesn't get to decide to absolve itself, or Joe Paterno, of wrongdoing by creating an alternative legal system under which there is no culpability.
I have said or indicated no such thing. I've indicated that Penn State and the State of Pennsylvania (you keep forgetting this agency) created a situation in which Paterno is legally liable for both criminal and civil charges regardless of what he does; that is to say, they've placed him in a position where they can defer all blame and punishment to him without having to reconsider their system or accept responsibility for their actions.
Rynar wrote:
Essentially your argument is that because of Penn State's employment contract, they get to invent an alternative reality in which children were not getting raped, and the rest of us are obligated to indulge this fantasy because Penn State says so.
No one has said any such thing at all; you are simply fabricating a position because you are emotionally outraged at the alleged actions of Sandusky. And, while I have little (if any) doubt that Sandusky is guilty of the majority of the allegations, to paint Joe Paterno with the same brush is both morally and ethically wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:50 am 
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Khross wrote:
No, actually, Paterno did not. Pennsylvania State chose to dismiss Sandusky in good standing (in the absence criminal prosecution); consequently, access to University Facilities as a Professor Emeritus is a contractual obligation on the part of Penn State. Paterno could not deny Sandusky access.

Just to clarify, I think you are using the information I posted earlier from a source that had the time line confused.

Sandusky was "removed" from the program in 1999 after admitting to "inappropriate touching" of one of the children under his care through the 2nd Mile organization. The current issues related to Sandusky occured in 2002, 3 years after that event, after another event in which a janitor with the university witnessed a child rape by Sanduskey, and 9 years prior to the termination of Paterno and the PSU President yesterday.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:52 am 
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Incorrect. I don't paint both with the same brush. What Sandusky (allegedly) did was reprehensible and indefensible, what Paterno did was wrong and self-serving.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:53 am 
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Ladas wrote:
I disagree. Its considerably more likely that choice of reason for termination was the least likely to result in further legal trouble for the University.
The University pretty much gets to avoid culpability anyway; the employees getting fired are contractual employees, not at will employees. This means there are all sorts of employment provisions that would otherwise not be applicable
Ladas wrote:
It also does not remove his moral culpability as you have suggested. It does support that he thought he was doing the right the thing at the time the event occurred by reporting the incident to the technical head of the police department, or essentially reporting it to the police. It does not however absolve him of the 9 years since that time, to include allowing the individual to continue to use his football facilities, much less sitting on the Board of the Directors for this individual's "charity" and not raising the issues there.
You don't know what Paterno did or did not do with regard to Sandusky's charity; and, as I have stated before, access to those facilities is a contractual obligation on the part of Penn State, not Joe Paterno.
Ladas wrote:
Just to clarify, I think you are using the information I posted earlier from a source that had the time line confused.

Sandusky was "removed" from the program in 1999 after admitting to "inappropriate touching" of one of the children under his care through the 2nd Mile organization. The current issues related to Sandusky occured in 2002, 3 years after that event, after another event in which a janitor with the university witnessed a child rape by Sanduskey, and 9 years prior to the termination of Paterno and the PSU President yesterday.
And Penn State still treated Sandusky as a Professor Emeritus in good standing. That's an organizational decision Paterno is contractually obligated to abide. The timeline doesn't matter too terribly much.

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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:54 am 
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Khross wrote:
I have said or indicated no such thing. I've indicated that Penn State and the State of Pennsylvania (you keep forgetting this agency) created a situation in which Paterno is legally liable for both criminal and civil charges regardless of what he does; that is to say, they've placed him in a position where they can defer all blame and punishment to him without having to reconsider their system or accept responsibility for their actions.

This isn't directed to me, but honestly, I don't care that he was in a double jeopardy situation, and that fact only reinforces in my mind the correct course of action, if you are damned either way, is to do what is morally correct. In this case, morally correct is removing Sandusky from University access, use of facilities, allowing him to bring those children to PSU "closed" football events, and making sure the rest of the BoD for the charity on which he serves is aware of the problems.

You are screwed anyway, make sure you do the right thing and protect those who can't protect themselves. He failed at that.


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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:03 am 
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Except, Ladas, if Paterno takes the course of action you describe, he becomes:

1. Civilly liable for all monetary damages suffered by the university.

2. Guilty of slander regardless off the outcome of any criminal prosecution against Sandusky.

3. Guilty of criminal charges on both the State and Federal level.

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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:04 am 
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Khross wrote:
The University pretty much gets to avoid culpability anyway; the employees getting fired are contractual employees, not at will employees. This means there are all sorts of employment provisions that would otherwise not be applicable

I'm not arguing the University is wrong, and from what I see, the BoD of the University is accepting the problem lays on the heads of their group and has taken action to remove the problem. That isn't the point of any of our discussion though.

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You don't know what Paterno did or did not do with regard to Sandusky's charity

Paterno sits on the Board of Directors for the 2nd Mile charity, run by Sanduskey, and has for years. Likewise, a former President of Penn State also sits on that board. Now, it is possible that this BoD was made aware of the issues, charges, witnessed accounts, etc and choose to do nothing, but that as a voting member of that Board, Paterno is still culpable, as well as everyone else on that board.

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and, as I have stated before, access to those facilities is a contractual obligation on the part of Penn State, not Joe Paterno.
And I hold PSU through their administration responsible as well. So the PSU BoD apparently.

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The timeline doesn't matter too terribly much.

I disagree.


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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:14 am 
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Khross wrote:
Except, Ladas, if Paterno takes the course of action you describe, he becomes:

1. Civilly liable for all monetary damages suffered by the university.

2. Guilty of slander regardless off the outcome of any criminal prosecution against Sandusky.

3. Guilty of criminal charges on both the State and Federal level.

This is essentially the same argument that X was using that find completely despicable.

In my opinion, those personal consequences pale in comparison consequences of the victims (past and future), and that isn't enough to help you sleep at night, your list ignore the fact he is still vulnerable to civil damages due to lack of action.

If you can ignore the moral implications and have to chose between legal consequences, I'd make the jury convict me for standing up for my conviction and doing what is morally correct.


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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:16 am 
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Ladas:

I'm not ignoring anything. I'm challenging the false outrage of posters who would otherwise make rational posts on this matter.

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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:20 am 
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Khross wrote:
Ladas:

I'm not ignoring anything. I'm challenging the false outrage of posters who would otherwise make rational posts on this matter.


There is no false outrage. Employment contracts have no bearing on the morality of aiding child rapists, regardless of what sorts of double jeopardy they may place someone in.

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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:22 am 
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Rynar wrote:
There is no false outrage. Employment contracts have no bearing on the morality of aiding child rapists, regardless of what sorts of double jeopardy they may place someone in.
See, this is where you and Ladas both wrong ...

"Aiding" requires deliberate facilitation; the level of agency necessary to "aid a child rapist" is far beyond what either of you are considering.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:25 am 
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I don't see any false outrage.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:27 am 
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Ladas wrote:
I don't see any false outrage.
At the point you're accusing Paterno of direct complicity in "aiding child rape", you've gone beyond rational discourse about this situation; it's just posturing and false outrage.

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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:28 am 
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Khross wrote:
Except, Ladas, if Paterno takes the course of action you describe, he becomes:

1. Civilly liable for all monetary damages suffered by the university.

2. Guilty of slander regardless off the outcome of any criminal prosecution against Sandusky.

3. Guilty of criminal charges on both the State and Federal level.


I haven't seen any evidence that he becomes criminally liable at all. As for the other two, they are questionable at best.

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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:36 am 
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What about the Graduate Assistant (now an assistant coach)? Upon witnessing the act, he did nothing at that moment, called his dad and then waited to tell Coach Paterno on the next day. I don't imagine he was necessarily held to any standards of employment much the same as Paterno was. Where's the outrage against him?

There is so much wrong with this case, I just don't know what to think. The local news and sports radio stations are absolutely saturated with this case. It's all they are talking about.

Article from Philly.com - Link
Spoiler:
The Pulse: Why didn't the assistant coach who witnessed a 2002 sex assault intervene?


Michael Smerconish, Inquirer Columnist

There is one line amid the 23-page grand jury presentment that marks the depth of the alleged depravity in the Penn State scandal. As a father of three sons, it makes me sick to read.

Here is the context:

It was about 9:30 p.m. on March 1, 2002 - the Friday before the beginning of spring break - in the Lasch Football Building on the main campus.

And here is the line:

"He saw a naked boy, Victim 2, whose age he estimated to be 10 years old, with his hands up against the wall, being subjected to anal intercourse by a naked [Jerry] Sandusky."

The "he" has been identified by the Harrisburg Patriot-News and other media outlets as Mike McQueary, then a graduate assistant and now an assistant coach at Penn State. Sandusky, of course, is the former Penn State football coach who has been charged with sexually assaulting eight boys over a decade.

So what did McQueary do in that moment? Did he shout? Did he pry the attacker off the young boy? Did he seek help from anyone who might have been nearby? Did he call the police?

The answer to all these questions is no, at least according to the grand jury report.

Instead, the 28-year-old called his father. And John McQueary told his son to call head football coach Joe Paterno. He did, the next day. And later that Saturday, the two met at Paterno's house. (I keep wondering where the 10-year-old was and what he was doing by then.)

What was said at the Saturday meeting?

According to the grand jury report, the graduate assistant told Paterno "what he had seen." Before the grand jury, Paterno testified that he was told that Sandusky was seen "fondling or doing something of a sexual nature to a young boy."

Regardless of what level of detail he was provided, in my opinion there is no exculpatory explanation to be offered on Paterno's behalf. Maybe that's why he released a statement last weekend when the story broke, before this week's events led to his firing:

"As my grand jury testimony stated, I was informed in 2002 by an assistant coach that he had witnessed an incident in the shower of our locker-room facility. It was obvious that the witness was distraught over what he saw, but he at no time related to me the very specific actions contained in the grand jury report."

He continued: "Regardless, it was clear that the witness saw something inappropriate involving Mr. Sandusky."

The day after his meeting with McQueary, Paterno hosted athletic director Tim Curley at his home and related that the graduate assistant "had seen Jerry Sandusky in the Lasch Building showers fondling or doing something of a sexual nature to a young boy," according to the grand jury report.

So what happened to Sandusky? He was essentially put on double secret probation and prohibited from using the athletic facilities with young people.

All of which is why many have been appropriately asking of Paterno and Penn State president Graham Spanier: What did they know and when did they know it?

But I am fixated on an earlier point of the causal chain. I want to know why Mike McQueary did not take immediate action.

I am trying to be fair to the man. For all I know there is some plausible explanation not revealed in the grand jury report. If so, it's unlikely we'll hear it soon. His father was quoted in the Centre Daily Times as saying, "The attorney general in Harrisburg told us, because we are witnesses, they told us not to make any comment whatsoever."

But without more details, the situation that Mike McQueary encountered on that Friday night in 2002 seems akin to a passerby who witnesses the rape of a woman in an alley and chooses to walk past.

The event he told the grand jury he witnessed was live and ongoing. If fact, he testified that he believed both Sandusky and the boy saw him when he witnessed the attack. I wonder what the young boy thought when McQueary did nothing. I wonder how that inaction may have scarred him.

It would seem that an adult bore silent witness to subjugation, manipulation, and coercion. And rather than take immediate action, he delayed, called a parent, and disregarded the immediate safety of a prepubescent boy.

Shame, shame, shame.

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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:38 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Khross wrote:
Except, Ladas, if Paterno takes the course of action you describe, he becomes:

1. Civilly liable for all monetary damages suffered by the university.

2. Guilty of slander regardless off the outcome of any criminal prosecution against Sandusky.

3. Guilty of criminal charges on both the State and Federal level.
I haven't seen any evidence that he becomes criminally liable at all. As for the other two, they are questionable at best.
They aren't questionable at all; that's how these things work.

If he complies with Federal First Reporter mandates, he's criminally guilty of defrauding Pennsylvania State.

If he complies with Pennsylvania State's employment contract, he's criminally guilty of violating First Reporter mandates.

It's a no win situation for Paterno.

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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:40 am 
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Khross wrote:
Ladas:

I'm not ignoring anything. I'm challenging the false outrage of posters who would otherwise make rational posts on this matter.


What false outrage is that?

The outrage was at Xeq's position that he would not either intervene or call the police if he actually witnessed the child abuse.

That was the situation the GA was in, not the situation Paterno was in, even if he weren't nearly 70 years old at the time of the alleged abuse and probably in no position to physically challenge Sandusky.

I don't believe the situation with regard to Title IX is nearly as cut and dried as you think it is, mainly because if Paterno were sued by the University over this, or criminally charged, the implications of the law - that it prevents a person from reporting child rape to the police, and puts him in an unteneble legal situation - would almost certainly result in an overturning of it by the Supreme Court amid public outrage - and make no mistake, it would go all the way to the Supreme Court with considerable press attention, assuming Paterno's adversaries didn't decline to appeal at a lower level, simply because of the incredibly high profile nature of the case. As for lack of funds to hire a lawyer, plenty of lawyers would be all over the chance to represent Joe Paterno, even if he is not personally exceptionally wealthy.

In any case, however, Paterno is really not what everyone was so upset about; it was the idea that someone might be more concerned with imagined "blackballing" and "getting fired" for reporting a child rape while it was actually in progress, or, failing that, intervening to stop the attack. Xeq seems to have conflated your comments regarding Title IX and Paterno with some applicability Title IX may or may not have to the actual witness to the crime, at the time the crime was occuring, specifically the GA.

If Title IX, by some bizarre machination of poorly-written legislation, somehow is supposed to prevent employees from reporting or stopping a crime in progress, I'm calling bullshit. As I asked before, if a woman is being raped and an employee (PAterno or anyone else) sees it and calls the police, is that somehow a breach? If there is a fire and he pulls the fire alarm does he somehow become liable later if it turns out it was Arson, because he didn't call his boss and say "The field house is on fire!" and have him call the fire company?

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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:41 am 
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Diamondeye:

You obviously did not read my explanation of the Title IX complications. More over, you're attempting to complicate the discussion with a series of red herring arguments.

Title IX requires Paterno to be a First Reporter. Federal Law mandates that he report allegations of harming a minor (which is what he received from the GA) to appropriate authorities (in most cases this is the State Police and FBI).

Paterno's contract with Pennsylvania State dictates that the appropriate authorities are his Athletic Director for internal handling and the Campus Police (agents of the State Police).

Paterno's contract protects the school, not Paterno.

Title IX protects the victim, not Paterno.

And it's been held up in court that this conflict of contract and statute is both legal and valid (at least 3 university presidents were dismissed last year in this kind of legal quagmire).

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Last edited by Khross on Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Penn State
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:42 am 
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Khross wrote:
See, this is where you and Ladas both wrong ...

"Aiding" requires deliberate facilitation; the level of agency necessary to "aid a child rapist" is far beyond what either of you are considering.

A) I'm not "wrong" in my opinion that Paterno holds moral responsibility for the escalation of this situation, for which the first waves were started in 1998 when Sandusky admitted in a complaint to fondling a child under his protection, and includes other known events that occurred on the campus post that first.

B) I am not "wrong" in my lack of care about the conflicting legal ramifications in determining the proper response.

C) Paterno's direct involvement with 2nd Mile organization as a member of the Board of Trustees, which knowledge of the individual and actions that are both morally and legally wrong, and directly harmful to the actions of the charity and places those receiving services from the charity in continued direct harm could be considered rising to the level of "Aiding".


Last edited by Ladas on Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Khross wrote:
At the point you're accusing Paterno of direct complicity in "aiding child rape", you've gone beyond rational discourse about this situation; it's just posturing and false outrage.

You have then falsely attributed my position on this subject.


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