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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:55 am 
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okay I just got a response back from my friend...

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In Japanese custom, it's required for anyone to bow to someone of authority or when greeting a person (like I would bow to you whenever we meet). Obama did bow a bit too far (angle-wise) but he didn't "bow down" to the Emperor. I think he may have been told that the correct bow had to be lower than the recipient's head (the Emperor is very very short) or something but that isn't true. A 45 degree angle would have sufficed. This is in no way treasonous or improper, just simple Japanese custom. The idiots who claim treason are just that, idiots.

So, you are correct that Obama bowed too low but subservience is shown in a "dogeza" in which a person is on their knees and bowing with their head to the ground. Obama did not do this. The "dogeza" is performed to show subservience and for extreme apology.


So I was incorrect, he did not show subservience, he just bowed a bit too far.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:31 am 
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And frankly, the height difference is pretty significant. I'm not surprised.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:41 am 
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Personally, I could care less about the bow, though the depth of his bow does look a bit over done. I understand the custom, and can appreciate the desire to act "when in Rome" with foreign dignitaries. And I am more than serious in my comment about the WH gift shop... whoever is handling that for him as finally stopped being an embarrassment.

But as a side topic, how does the recognition of custom work in situations like this?

Obviously they are also shaking hands, which has been stated as a 'westernization" of Asian greeting customs, but when looking outside of this specific venue, the tendency appears to be to adopt the customs of both culture's at such a formal level when greeting.

So, while it makes complete sense for Obama to bow when in the country of that dignitary as a respect of their culture and his status within that county, would it not be appropriate, if the venues were reversed, for the Asian ruler to bow to Obama?

Just curious.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:58 am 
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The emperor never bows, from what I understand. Different strokes for different folks.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:33 am 
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Monte wrote:
The emperor never bows, from what I understand. Different strokes for different folks.

But what if the custom is to bow to the President? Whose custom overrides?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:35 am 
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The custom isn't to bow to the President. And I don't really know how that would play out. The custom is to stand when the president enters the room, and from what I understand, that happened. Again, proper customs were observed here. It's much ado about nothing.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama's Asian Tour
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:41 am 
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I'm curious as to why we're discussing appropriate greeting mannerisms when the question has to do with the efficacy of his visits.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:53 am 
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Probably because it is the most significant event of the trip.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:59 am 
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I'd guess, Khross, it's because efficacy has been absent in the Obama World TourTM.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:30 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
Personally, I could care less about the bow, though the depth of his bow does look a bit over done. I understand the custom, and can appreciate the desire to act "when in Rome" with foreign dignitaries. And I am more than serious in my comment about the WH gift shop... whoever is handling that for him as finally stopped being an embarrassment.

But as a side topic, how does the recognition of custom work in situations like this?

Obviously they are also shaking hands, which has been stated as a 'westernization" of Asian greeting customs, but when looking outside of this specific venue, the tendency appears to be to adopt the customs of both culture's at such a formal level when greeting.

So, while it makes complete sense for Obama to bow when in the country of that dignitary as a respect of their culture and his status within that county, would it not be appropriate, if the venues were reversed, for the Asian ruler to bow to Obama?

Just curious.

A firm handshake is this countries emblem; bowing is Japan's. The emblem is not culturally recognized in America.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama's Asian Tour
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:34 pm 
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Khross wrote:
I'm curious as to why we're discussing appropriate greeting mannerisms when the question has to do with the efficacy of his visits.


Because I decided to be a troll and feighn outrage over it, and get 3 pages of people ranting and carrying on about it.

Aren't you glad trolling isn't against the rules? :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:35 pm 
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A bit more on the efficacy front.

Politico wrote:
SEOUL, South Korea — President Barack Obama returns from his maiden Asian swing with none of the concrete accomplishments that White Houses typically put in place before big trips, setting up a stark test for his idealistic theory that the United States should act more like a wise neighbor than a swaggering superpower.

Obama’s minimalist approach was most consequential in China, where he did not meet with Christians, dissidents or bloggers, or directly challenge his hosts for repressive tactics that are again on the rise.

The Chinese in turn rebuffed longstanding U.S. concerns – whether on human rights, Iran or currency policy – in a heavily stage-managed visit where China, not Obama, clearly sought the upper hand.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama's Asian Tour
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:34 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Aren't you glad trolling isn't against the rules? :mrgreen:


Yes, generally speaking.

Otherwise, what else would we have to talk about!?

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 Post subject: Re: Obama's Asian Tour
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:36 am 
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DFK! wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Aren't you glad trolling isn't against the rules? :mrgreen:


Yes, generally speaking.

Otherwise, what else would we have to talk about!?


WoW, apparently. After politics I'd say it's a close second.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama's Asian Tour
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:24 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
WoW, apparently. After politics I'd say it's a close second.



So sad.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama's Asian Tour
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:23 am 
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SNL skit on Obama's meeting in China, pretty funny:

http://msunderestimated.com/2009/11/21/ ... ing-video/

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 Post subject: Re: Obama's Asian Tour
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:03 pm 
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That skit was seriously hilarious.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:55 pm 
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That was truly awesome.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:48 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Obama's Asian Tour
PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:53 pm 
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The bow isn't that big a deal. Everyone's smart enough to know that he's not illustrating his subservience. All it does is highlight his inexperience in foreign policy. This does not particularly concern me, as it is a small matter.

However, the tour itself seriously highlights his inexperience. WTF was the point? Did he even have an agenda? Remember, he put off making a serious decision about an ongoing war for this tour. At least accomplish something. Yeesh.


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 Post subject: Re: Obama's Asian Tour
PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:16 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
The bow isn't that big a deal. Everyone's smart enough to know that he's not illustrating his subservience. All it does is highlight his inexperience in foreign policy. This does not particularly concern me, as it is a small matter.

However, the tour itself seriously highlights his inexperience. WTF was the point? Did he even have an agenda? Remember, he put off making a serious decision about an ongoing war for this tour. At least accomplish something. Yeesh.


Yeah, but we have to make unimportant things huge arguments rather than focusing on underlying things that matter.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama's Asian Tour
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:30 am 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
The bow isn't that big a deal. Everyone's smart enough to know that he's not illustrating his subservience. All it does is highlight his inexperience in foreign policy.


It highlights his skill and experience, not his lack there of. I know that some people think everyone should just kiss our red white and blue *** whenever we show up at their party, but this sort of thing has long been missing from our international relations. He showed proper respect to a foreign leader in their country while visiting. This shouldn't be a controversy, it should be standard.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama's Asian Tour
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:59 am 
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Monte wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
The bow isn't that big a deal. Everyone's smart enough to know that he's not illustrating his subservience. All it does is highlight his inexperience in foreign policy.


It highlights his skill and experience, not his lack there of. I know that some people think everyone should just kiss our red white and blue *** whenever we show up at their party, but this sort of thing has long been missing from our international relations. He showed proper respect to a foreign leader in their country while visiting. This shouldn't be a controversy, it should be standard.


Yeah, then he tells Iran to **** off politely and continues to support American hegemony. All we needed in international relations was politeness. We should have more politely invaded Iraq and humbly shot rockets from UAVs at villages in Pakistan. Then we'll repect Afghanistan by giving them 40 thousand more foreign trops on their soil.

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 Post subject: Re: Obama's Asian Tour
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:05 am 
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What experience? Really ...

You're arguing Obama has diplomatic experience and foreign policy experience based on WHAT empirical evidence? That he's been President for 9 months and **** up every measure of diplomatic and dignitary protocol possible?

The Emperor of Japan is more of a figurehead than the Queen of England, Montegue. Bow or No Bow ... the meeting is totally immaterial in the grand scheme of things. Maybe you should look at real foreign policy and geopolitical news ...

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 Post subject: Re: Obama's Asian Tour
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:39 am 
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Monte wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
The bow isn't that big a deal. Everyone's smart enough to know that he's not illustrating his subservience. All it does is highlight his inexperience in foreign policy.


It highlights his skill and experience, not his lack there of. I know that some people think everyone should just kiss our red white and blue *** whenever we show up at their party, but this sort of thing has long been missing from our international relations. He showed proper respect to a foreign leader in their country while visiting. This shouldn't be a controversy, it should be standard.


Right, so all the other countless foreign dignitaries that don't bow to him are the inexperienced ones?


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