The Glade 4.0

Vindi - Tiller followed the law, in Kansas. He went before a judge twice and was acquitted both times. The women he treated exercised their legal right to an abortion, he exercised his legal right to perform it, under state and federal law.

You may not think what he did was moral, but it most certainly was legal, in one of the most anti-abortion states in the
country.

Edit - and yes, to whomever asks, that revises my 3rd trimester position.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

I, I just don't understand.

You've been willing, even eager to side with Tiller - to the point of calling him a hero.

You believe the unborn child is alive at ~17 weeks.

You are vehemently anti-death penalty, to the point that you espouse rhetoric about letting 1000 guilty men go free rather than one innocent man suffer.

Thousands upon thousands of innocent lives (innocent in the most pure way imaginable) have been taken, many much later than at 17 weeks, yet you fall back on - "it's legal".

I just can't get there from here.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

Just pop 5 or 6 PEZ and relax. You do not want to go cross eyed.

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

But if the Pez Dispenser was Superman - could he rip his own head off?

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

That's because you are not seeing that I separate my morality from the morality of a person in that situation.

Look, I don't like the racist messages delivered at KKK rallies, but those people have a right to rally and say those hateful things. Those women had a legal right to terminate their pregnancies. The ones that did so late in the process had medical reasons to do so.

You may not agree that mental health "counts", but the doctors and the law disagree with you. And you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Their morality or yours is irrelevant.

His point distills down to the fact you find legally sanctioned murder ok, and even the right of the woman (again, assuming we're operating under the premise that the fetus is a living human with rights).

Yet, simultaneously, you abhor the death penalty which is legally sanctioned murder.

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"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones

No, I don't. Just like I don't find shooting someone to be "ok", no matter the circumstances. Something can be legal and not be "ok".



Yes. I abhor the death penalty on the same grounds that I abhor overreaching abortion restrictions. The state should not have the power to force a woman to give birth, just like it should not have the power to force a woman to terminate a pregnancy. Two sides of the same coin.

I know of precious few people with very simple outlooks on the abortion issue. There are medically necessary late term abortions. These abortions are tragedies, but they do happen. Pregnancy can very much be a danger to a woman's life, and that danger sometimes doesn't present itself until late into the pregnancy. I don't understand why the minimum bar for women's health has to be a direct threat to her life, to be honest.

I don't know if mental health is reasonable or not. I know that mental health issues are like any other illness - they can and do kill. I also don't think it's fair to force a woman to bring a pregnancy to term where the fetus is non viable. I don't think it's fair to force a woman to bring a pregnancy to term and then not help that woman raise or care for that child.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

It's not "forcing her to give birth". It's protecting the rights of the fetus. If I drive my car over someone, the state prosecutes me for manslaughter or murder, whichever is appropriate. By donig so, it isn't restricting me from driving my car as I please.

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"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones

Delivering a baby is just as hard on our bodies regardless of whether it is dead or alive.

What's important in these life threatening cases is to get the baby out of the woman's womb. Typically, a Caesarian section is easier than inducing labor, but if you need the baby out, you are going to need to do one of those things regardless. I don't see how intentionally killing the baby first is going to make it any easier, but there may be something I'm overlooking here.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

No, it's forcing her to give birth. In the end, eliminating her right to control her own reproduction forces her to go through with the pregnancy.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Except, there's the rights of another (again, implicit is this assumption) human.

Just because I want to drive fast or fire guns (where that lethal, but it is still dangerous) into the air and I'm not allowed to doesn't mean my rights are being trampled upon. There is no reason I shouldn't be able to drive fast or fire guns into the air; the sole reason I'm not allowed to is because it's a danger to the rights of others.

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"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones

Generally speaking, these abortions occur in a few situations. First, the fetus has some sort of genetic disorder that virtually guarantees or guarantees a very short, painful life, if it manages to get to term. Or, a condition develops that represents a serious risk to the woman's health. In those cases, the fetus is usually not yet ready to survive out of the womb.

You bring up a good point though. If a condition presents itself, and the baby *is* able to survive out of the womb, I can certainly see the argument that we should try to save that baby's life.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

As stated somewhere earlier, i believe the most premature baby to survive was born at near 21 weeks. Assuming the fetus has developed normally, there's no reason not to at least attempt to keep it alive if one must induce or have an early C-section for health reasons. Much prior to that, it would appear there is no normal brain activity anyway, so there would really be no point; it's not yet a person.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

You're entitled to your views as always, but how do you change your position when it comes to other topics that are entirely legal, but suspect morally? You can side with Tiller and state it's due to the laws position, but when Limbaugh says something you disagree with, and it's still protected under law, you are lighting torches and handing out pitchforks. I find it curious how your moral compass seems to spin when faced with certain topics.

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A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill

It feels right...

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

Hannibal - why is someone required to have the same views on topics that are only somewhat related in order to have a viable outlook on life?

Ive never lit torches, nor have I ever handed out pitchforks. Limbaugh has a legal right to his freedom of speech. Now, if his speech incites violence, that's a different matter. I have never questioned his *right* to free speech, but I do question the content of his speech, and rightfully so.

I believe the choice to carry a pregnancy to term or not is a very private decision, and a very difficult one. It's none of my business, really, why a woman terminates her pregnancy, or even what her medical condition is in regards to her pregnancy, nor is it my business what her fetus' medical condition is.

And that's sort of where your comparison to my reactions to a right wing racist bloviator end. There is nothing private about what he does.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

No one should have the legal choice to kill another innocent living human.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

No government should have the right to intrude on a woman's private medical decisions with her doctor.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

No government can. Rights belong only to individuals.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

They are not "required" as is shown countless times a day.

A consistant view on issues tends to show a well thought out and reasoned opinion. An inconsistant or waffling position does not. It takes thought and effort to stick to your principals. If you find your morals or ethics consistantly at odds with your actions and words, then they are not your ethics or morals.

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A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill

Wow. So my rights are contingent on what some other guy does?

THAT'S not a standard that scares me.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

Then I assume you will be chaniging your abortion stance to one that supports a woman's right to be left alone?

edit - Kaffis, you aren't making any sense. You don't have the right to shout fire in a crowded theater. If you go out and incite people to violence, you are legally responsible. Those questions have long been asked and answered in this country.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Well, you know, the Law of Unintended Consequences (M.A.L. Revision) suggests that ... you're responsible for what the ruttin' jackass down the street does with the power saw you sold him at your garage sale, even if he moves to another piece of rock.

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But that's not really what we are talking about here.

If a crowd of Tea Party protesters gets riled up by someone to go out and kill liberals, and then goes out and kills liberals, that's one thing. Loaning a guy your electric saw is another.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Yeah those Community Organizers on the right really gin up the protesters.

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A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill